540 to 550 Upgrade Path |
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Author | ||
comancheguytoo
Newbie Joined: 17 Apr 2015 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 29 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: 22 Aug 2016 at 1:40pm |
|
Thanks Gring
|
||
Gring
Senior Member Joined: 30 Dec 2011 Location: Kingston, NY Status: Offline Points: 722 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
You need to have the rev version of the KCS55 HSI that has the bootstrap to send any heading information out so you want to check that out first.
|
||
comancheguytoo
Newbie Joined: 17 Apr 2015 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 29 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Hey guys,
Does anyone know if the KCS-55A heading output will work with the 550? I'd like to take advantage of the 540 upgrade option, but not ready to pull my old trusty HSI yet. The install manual says this under signal outputs: Heading synchro transmitter: Output equal to 206 millivolts per degree of heading rotation. I know the CDI outputs to the 540 fine, but never considered heading output. Thanks, Jim
|
||
tony
Senior Member Joined: 06 Dec 2011 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 466 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
So I think I get it. The ARS that's in the 550 doesn't know how it fits into the earth's magnetic coordinate system. Looking for a stand alone certified AHRS to get heading is a little pricey for me. Is it possible that in a future software update:
Edited by tony - 25 Jul 2016 at 3:26pm |
||
AviJake
Admin Group Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
There are still some folks with questions about the IFD550 and the need for a heading input to get the Total Velocity Vector (TVV) which is for all intents and purposes, the same as a flight path marker. Hope this explanation helps a little:
An IFD550 will display pitch and roll attitude from the internal inertial unit displayed in either a conventional blue-over-brown ADI format, or in a synthetic vision format with 3-D terrain, obstacles, traffic, flight plan, etc. In the synthetic vision view: ·
If the IFD is
connected to a valid heading source, the attitude reference symbol will “point”
at the current aircraft heading as provided by the external heading input. The
total velocity vector (TVV) will “point” at the flight path angle. The 3D
compass will display the current aircraft heading on a digital readout. · If the IFD is not connected to a valid heading source, the aircraft reference symbol will “point” at the current aircraft track as provided by the GPS. The 3D compass will display the current aircraft track from the GPS on a digital readout. There will be no display of the TVV. The TVV is never shown in the conventional attitude indicator view. The horizontal displacement of the TVV is computed as the angular difference between heading angle and track angle. Without a heading input, there is no computation to be performed and the TVV would be constrained to vertical displacement above/below the attitude reference symbol. While that provides some information, the TVV would serve merely as an angle of attack indicator, and was removed. The acceptable heading sources for an IFD are: Any device supplying ARINC 429
Label 320, Magnetic Heading (e.g. Aspen, G500/600, E1 PFD, EFIS40/50, GTX330
(data concentrator), Sandel EHSIs (3308, etc.), configuration items that
support Magnetic Heading (in descending priority) ·
INS/IRU ·
EFIS ·
EFIS/Airdata ·
Honeywell EFIS
(e.g. Aspen PFD) ·
Garmin GDU (i.e.
Garmin G500/600) ·
Sandel EHSI ·
Airdata/AHRS ·
Garmin GAD 42 ·
Garmin GTX 330 ·
Garmin GTX 330 w/
Traffic ·
Traffic Advisory Devices configured Shadin-fadc
or Shadin-adc that have a heading input. Synchro (we have ~5 wires on the
J5050 connector dedicated for this) Stormscope (synchro into the
stormscope, which sends it on in serial format)
We have no preference for which you use. In my test airplane, I have: Aspen PFD Garmin G500 GTX330ES TAS6XXA TWX670 so it would be a bad day for me not to have heading input and therefore a TVV. |
||
Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
||
AviSimpson
Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2015 Location: Lincoln, MA Status: Offline Points: 765 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
The IFD540 upgrade to IFD550 form is now available here: http://www.avidyne.com/files/downloads/IFD540_to_IFD550_Agreement_Form.pdf
Let me know if you have any questions.
|
||
Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
||
195pilot
Newbie Joined: 11 May 2016 Location: KDPA -IL Status: Offline Points: 17 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Thanks, David and Steve. I appreciate your insights and comments.
Edited by 195pilot - 11 Jun 2016 at 11:25pm |
||
AviJake
Admin Group Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I agree with David.
|
||
Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
||
ddgates
Senior Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Location: Deer Valley Status: Offline Points: 1100 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
With current history, performance, and bandwidth, I would NOT buy a 550 anticipating the 550 to do anything more than drive the 550; i.e., not serve as AHRS for an autopilot. I suppose Avidyne could do that, maybe are even planning to do that (I doubt it), but within any reasonable timeline? They don't have the bandwidth to complete current <<overdue>> projects. With the draconian cert which would be required on top of that? Nooooooo sir. With the modifications coming to the "newer and friendlier" FAA, more likely you in the future might buy one of the whiz bang APs which are either in or coming to the EXP world. That likely would have its own AHRS. (and would cost you maybe a LOT less). It is just my opinion, mind you, but my suggestion based on the appearance of the avionics world, keep the 540, keep the STEC 30 (don't buy the 55x), and wait and see what comes onto the market in the next 2-3 years. You'll love what you already have, and you will have a $$ war chest for when the next generation of new goodies hit the market. Edited by ddgates - 11 Jun 2016 at 1:11pm |
||
David Gates
|
||
195pilot
Newbie Joined: 11 May 2016 Location: KDPA -IL Status: Offline Points: 17 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
A couple of weeks ago, I ordered my IFD540 and APX340 plus the MLB100 and the installation will take place in a few weeks. I think that the IFD540 is (more than) adequate for my current needs, but I don't want to be stuck with yesterday's sweetheart when it comes to future added features and improvements. That places me pretty much on the fence regarding Avidyne's prepaid upgrade offer and searching for input from others who are more experienced than I am. As is the case for most, budget is a consideration but I certainly don't want regret a decision to not upgrade under the current offer.
The 540 is a huge step up from my current Collins Microline with a IIMorrow GX-55 with GPSS. I've spent quite a bit of armchair time with my iPad and Avidyne's free simulator and feel at least moderately grounded in its use and can easily envision using the new stuff in my plane. I also saw the very helplful matrix above that details the major differences between the 540 and 550 including ARS. However the topic is new enough to me that I may not yet fully appreciate what the differences mean to me. My plane currently has a S-TEC Series 30 autopilot with altitude hold and GPSS. I understand that the 540 will play nicely with it. I'm considering an autopilot upgrade at some time in the future once the bank account has had a chance to recharge. Maybe to a S-TEC 55 or equivalent to get the benefits of coupled approaches, preset altitudes and so forth. Does the IFD550's ARS give more meaningful inputs to the S-TEC 55 or is there no advantage there? My Cessna 195 benefits from "help" in the area of pitch control as well as roll control. It's not particularly stable in either, although the current autopilot has taken care of both for cruise flight. I'm anticipating that preset altitudes, ILS/VNAV tracking and other similar modes would be pretty coarse without attitude based inputs, but I've heard that the 550 may not be the solution for that? Edited by 195pilot - 11 Jun 2016 at 11:29pm |
||
oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3058 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
My pleasure. It is an unhappy day for me, when one goes by and I don't learn something. * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 04 Jun 2016 at 10:53pm |
||
ddgates
Senior Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Location: Deer Valley Status: Offline Points: 1100 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
The point of all of the standalone AOA devices is not to derive a number as discussed here, it is to determine the critical alpha for a given wing set, then alert the pilot when that alpha is approached.
I suppose you could take your 47 in level flight and calculate an alpha value for a near stall and use that number as a guide. In the case of my AlphaSystems device it calculates differential pressures on a pressure vane and compares the current value of differential pressure to that identified as critical alpha. I agree with Tom, always learning which is good. Best to all. David
|
||
David Gates
|
||
n7ifr
Senior Member Joined: 05 Aug 2013 Location: Scottsdale, Az Status: Offline Points: 470 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
It is just a bit of math. An AOA vane measures the AOA (relative wind) directly, and more accurately. Obviously preferable. Although the data is used internally, ironically, it is only a minority of civilian transport aircraft that show raw AOA. No, ASPEN does not break out the AOA into a numeric value. But, I suspect that is exactly what they are using, in deriving their AOA values, with some smoothing added, and displayed relative to a reference point established with the fairly extensive flight testing required as part of the install. If I was going to install a stand alone AOA system, I'd get the Safe Flight system. * Orest Well, the Aspen AOA must have more... shows AOA in unusual attitudes like steep banks also, which must be beyond just the TVV. I will pay much more attention to the TVV practicing my Commercial Maneuvers... Great forum - Thanks Orest. I always learn new stuff here. Tom Wolf |
||
oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3058 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
It is just a bit of math. An AOA vane measures the AOA (relative wind) directly, and more accurately. Obviously preferable. Although the data is used internally, ironically, it is only a minority of civilian transport aircraft that show raw AOA. No, ASPEN does not break out the AOA into a numeric value. But, I suspect that is exactly what they are using, in deriving their AOA values, with some smoothing added, and displayed relative to a reference point established with the fairly extensive flight testing required as part of the install. If I was going to install a stand alone AOA system, I'd get the Safe Flight system. * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 04 Jun 2016 at 9:30pm |
||
ronl
Groupie Joined: 08 Apr 2015 Status: Offline Points: 88 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
OK, now I can see that AOA can in fact be calculated from the TVV vs pitch. Thanks for the clear explanation O. I learned something today! :-)
|
||
Ron L
|
||
ddgates
Senior Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Location: Deer Valley Status: Offline Points: 1100 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
If those assertions are true, why do airliners have AOA vanes? If it is a simple subtraction between fight path and pitch, doesn't make sense.
The definition of AOA is delta between wing incidence and relative wind. The two may be close in normal flight regime, but not sure they are identical. EDIT: Does the aspen depict FPM numerically? If true, though, Avidyne can have its own AOA just with what is present. Is that how Aspen did their (derived) AOA? Edited by ddgates - 04 Jun 2016 at 8:42pm |
||
David Gates
|
||
oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3058 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Yes, typo, should be 4*.
After second segment climb, when you transition to cruise climb, note your displayed AOA. Maintain it, and you will maintain the same performance profile all the way up. Your Vy will decrease 7 to 8 knts to the mid-teens. You can do the math, or just follow your PFD (or IFD). You can maintain Vy, Vy + 20, or whatever, using this AOA aid. * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 04 Jun 2016 at 9:28pm |
||
n7ifr
Senior Member Joined: 05 Aug 2013 Location: Scottsdale, Az Status: Offline Points: 470 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Orest,
Fascinating... OK I am trying to follow your logic - I assume you meant 15-11 = 4 deg, not 3 for AOA in your example. So, next flight, I will observe the FPV (TVV) on my Aspen PFD with SV and hold a constant AOA delta ("Pitch - FPV") in the climb. Wonder how holding a constant AOA in the climb will compare to holding a constant IAS, like Vy speed (which admittedly will decrease slightly with altitude). Tom Wolf
Edited by n7ifr - 04 Jun 2016 at 7:29pm |
||
oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3058 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
A drawing makes it more obvious.
The 74 is shown in a climb here, the pitch attitude is Theta, the FPV is V-infinity. The AOA (alpha) is just pitch - FPV, which is pretty easy to read off the PFD. For example, if your pitch in the climb was 15*, and the FPV shows as 11*, then your AOA is 4* (EDIT). * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 04 Jun 2016 at 8:23pm |
||
oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3058 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Ha! I have you gentlemen.
Although the AOA is not shown discretely, the AOA is easily discerned as the angular difference between the pitch attitude and the FPV (TVV). That is really the definition of AOA. I use this all the time (with my ASPEN) to keep a constant AOA in a long climb. * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 04 Jun 2016 at 6:01pm |
||
ronl
Groupie Joined: 08 Apr 2015 Status: Offline Points: 88 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
David I agree with you. What it will be displaying is you pitch angle relative to the horizon in straight and level flight. It will not show your angle-of-attack.
|
||
Ron L
|
||
ddgates
Senior Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Location: Deer Valley Status: Offline Points: 1100 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Respectfully. I don't think that is correct, Orest. That's why I installed an AOA indicator. Avidyne, a built in AOA, like Aspen has done for their PFD and MFD, though derived, could be a useful add on for the 550. Just saying... David
|
||
David Gates
|
||
oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3058 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Put the circle on where you want to go, and the plane goes there. You can fill in any number of tasks there, whether level at cruise, or maneuvering.
Together with the SV provided actual horizon, and the pitch attitude, the TVV (FPV) will by difference show you your Angle of Attack, right on the PFD, or in this case the 550. * Orest |
||
M20Kid
Groupie Joined: 19 Aug 2015 Location: AZ Status: Offline Points: 79 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
|
I have flown a number of airplanes with the TVV installed and the only time it's made one dot of difference to me was when I was getting a type rating and had to fly steep turns. Keep the TVV on the horizon and you would not climb or descend. I have not had it tied to synthetic vision, though, so there may be some additional benefit (like seeing the runway on an ILS in a crosswind?). If most of your flying is cross country you will get some interesting, but mostly useless, information from the TVV. Just my 2 cents.
|
||
TomG
Newbie Joined: 26 Dec 2014 Location: Wilmington, NC Status: Offline Points: 32 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Can you illuminate some of it's uses? |
||
Tom G
|
||
AviJake
Admin Group Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Yes there is. Simpson just put it together in the last few days and should post it or a path to it when he returns to the office/on-line.
|
||
Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
||
BobsV35B
Senior Member Joined: 24 Aug 2011 Location: Downers Grove, Status: Offline Points: 131 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Is there any video that shows the TVV in action?
Happy Skies, Old Bob
|
||
Old Bob, Ancient Aviator
|
||
AviJake
Admin Group Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Resold as certified refurbished.
|
||
Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
||
Slatye
Newbie Joined: 31 Jan 2016 Status: Offline Points: 5 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Could I ask what's happening to the traded-in IFD540s? Will Avidyne just rebuild them as IFD550s? Or will they be re-sold as "certified refurbished" IFD540s?
|
||
oskrypuch
Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3058 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
A FPV (flight path vector) or TVV is an incredibly powerful tool.
* Orest |
||
AviJake
Admin Group Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I'm a TVV junkie. I don't care where my aircraft is heading, I only care where it is going. The TVV shows that.
But, I have a 3000+ hour HUD TVV bias here. For those who have not seen a TVV in operation, you will be able to continue to fly safely in blissful ignorance (not a bad thing at all). Clearly, you can fly an aircraft safely without the benefit of a TVV. Until, at least you see, and become, a TVV junkie and then you'll never be able to shake the addiction/habit.
|
||
Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
||
AviJake
Admin Group Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
You can do the slide in option. You do NOT need an inertial input - the 550 internal ARS (attitude reference system) provides that. If you do not have heading input then you do not get the TVV (total velocity vector) symbol. That's all you miss with no heading.
|
||
Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
||
George
Groupie Joined: 08 Apr 2014 Location: 66Y Status: Offline Points: 82 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Where and when on the early application form.
|
||
comancheguy
Senior Member Joined: 24 Aug 2011 Location: Maryland Status: Offline Points: 160 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Gotcha! Thanks!
|
||
AviSimpson
Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2015 Location: Lincoln, MA Status: Offline Points: 765 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
The green circle Edited by AviSimpson - 01 Jun 2016 at 12:14pm |
||
Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
||
MysticCobra
Senior Member Joined: 29 Jan 2013 Status: Offline Points: 649 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
From a 3rd-party site:
Edited by MysticCobra - 01 Jun 2016 at 11:59am |
||
comancheguy
Senior Member Joined: 24 Aug 2011 Location: Maryland Status: Offline Points: 160 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Thanks for the info, guys! So, Will 10.2 be available before the IFD-550? I would like to see how the in trial works in my 540s with 10.2. Ken |
||
AviSimpson
Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2015 Location: Lincoln, MA Status: Offline Points: 765 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Here's a start... |
||
Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
||
tony
Senior Member Joined: 06 Dec 2011 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 466 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
So I'm trying to understand this statement. Currently in my 540 installation, I have no inertial input. I display track and not heading. Do I have to add an inertial to upgrade from a 540 -> 550? or will the internal AHRS in the 550 be sufficient for the SV to work, given that I will not use this as a primary or backup source. Promise...... I just want to slide the 540 out and slide the 550 to get SV. Edited by tony - 01 Jun 2016 at 8:13am |
||
comancheguy
Senior Member Joined: 24 Aug 2011 Location: Maryland Status: Offline Points: 160 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
What would the install consist of, from an IFD-540 to 550?
Ken
|
||
LANCE
Senior Member Joined: 06 Dec 2014 Location: TEXAS Status: Offline Points: 277 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
This was in the e-mail that came out on April 1, 2016: Edited by LANCE - 31 May 2016 at 7:03pm |
||
hamilton
Newbie Joined: 23 Jul 2014 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 28 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Seeings you have pricing in this thread, would you have any idea on list price for an IFD545?
|
||
AviJake
Admin Group Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
For at least the initial cert, the IFD550 will be a "supplemental, non-required" additional source of attitude. That means, whatever attitude indicators your airplane currently requires is unchanged. You can not use the IFD550 to serve as one of your required attitude sources. Architecturally, nothing automatically prevents the device from being used as a standby or even primary but that is not the cert we are seeking at this time.
|
||
Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
||
AviJake
Admin Group Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
The upgrade from a 540 to a 550 can be 100% plug and play.
There are asterisks associated with that statement. For example, did you have heading input to the 540? If yes, then you will get the TVV part of the 550 to show up. If not, then either you don't get the TVV, or you must add a heading source input to the 540. But, there technically is no need to add any more wiring. The 550 will not require any additional hardware mods that exist at this time. If you have a 16W 540, then you would get a 16W 550 if you took advantage of the upgrade program that Simpson published. I won't comment on the logistics of shipping boxes all around the world. It will be so situationally dependent on the individual install - you will need to coordinate with your Avi Sales rep and/or your shop. As for how long do we need to keep your pledge money - I won't answer it. Every time I've tried in the past, things have gummed up those estimates and we felt the furor of customers who did not enjoy that uncertainty or unrealized expectations. So for now, "it will be done when it's done."
|
||
Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
||
TurboPA30
Senior Member Joined: 18 Sep 2010 Location: 27XS Status: Offline Points: 138 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Aside of being a fancy display, what is the STC going to bring? Like, can it be used as a standby A.I. for a glass panel?
|
||
LANCE
Senior Member Joined: 06 Dec 2014 Location: TEXAS Status: Offline Points: 277 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
This is not a complete certification but just an STC on the Attitude Reference System? Presumably a few weeks to a few months?
Edited by LANCE - 31 May 2016 at 6:20pm |
||
vuk3@me.com
Newbie Joined: 16 Dec 2013 Location: Me Status: Offline Points: 23 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Hi guys, A few questions from me: Is there any further wiring to be done to the existing IFD540 tray installation to make the IFD550 work? Will the IFD550 require factory installed hardware modifications after I install it? I assume the upgrade will be like for like... If I have the 16W Comms in my IFD540 then I'll have the same in the 550 right? I'm located in Australia, will you guys consider sending the IFD550 to my avionics shop before I send back my IFD540 to minimise downtime. And do you expect the FAA STC to be completed in weeks, months or years? I'd like to know how long I have to pledge my donation for an upgrade.
Cheers Andy Edited by vuk3@me.com - 31 May 2016 at 6:30pm |
||
VH-UAR YMMB
|
||
AviJake
Admin Group Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Yes, as soon as the FAA signs off on the STC.
|
||
Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
||
LANCE
Senior Member Joined: 06 Dec 2014 Location: TEXAS Status: Offline Points: 277 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I know this is a foolish question to ask . . but here goes . . . any rough idea of when the IFD550 will be certified?
|
||
ddgates
Senior Member Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Location: Deer Valley Status: Offline Points: 1100 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
A posted and clear video of the EGOCENTRIC SV for a 550 would be very useful.
Thanks. |
||
David Gates
|
||
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |