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Which Nav Indicator?

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Paul View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 Jan 2014 at 12:29pm
The IFD 540 Compatible Interfaces page lists twenty nav indicators.

I currently have a KI-209a and a KI-208, both of which are compatible.  My original plan was to use the KI-209a with the IFD and either keep the KI-208 on the KX-155A NAV/COM 2 radio or replace it with a KI-209 so that radio would have glide slope.  But I could sell those indicators and get something else.

Are there any which would be particularly good or bad?    I know an HSI might be nice but it isn't worth the expense.

Also there are several interfaces - for example some of the Bendix/King indicators have a decoder and some don't.  Do they all work equally well with the IFD?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2014 at 11:26am
Paul,

All the listed nav indicators work equally well with the IFD540.  For me, it comes down to intuitiveness of the display.

In the test airplane I fly every day,  I have the following nav indicators 

KI-209a CDI
GI-106 CDI
KI-525 HSI
KI-229 RMI
Aspen PFD

I personally prefer "monkey bar" type indicators.  For lateral and vertical deviation, the bars are perpendicular to each other and do not swing in a pendulum type movement - I find the pendulum variants to be sub-optimal from an intuitiveness perspective.  I always have to think and interpret what I'm seeing whereas monkey bars are instantly informative to me.

Maybe you were hoping for non-Avidyne folks to chime in in their recommendations so sorry if I jumped in.    I have 3000+ hours flying behind an HSI but I've found the CDIs and EFIS's of the world to be a better combo.  I can't believe I'm going to say this next statement, but it's true for me - of the nav indicators I listed above, I prefer the GI-106.  

Probably all just personal preference...
Steve Jacobson
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Paul View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2014 at 2:44pm
Have you tried flying with the KI-204 or KI-206?  Maybe you'll prefer it to the GI-106.

My question had two parts - whether or not some indicators worked better with the IFD and which are preferred.  The first part needed an answer from Avidyne and I've got that now - Thanks!

The second part comes down to preferences and money.  The KI-209 is the least expensive.  It would also mean that the indicator on the IFD and on the KX-155A would be of the same type.  I don't know if that is a good thing or not - it depends on whether they would act the same.  For example, if the plane is above the ILS, would the IFD and KX deflect the same amount?  If not, then having them be different types might be best from a cognitive standpoint.

Since this is a preference thing my wife will get to make the final decision.  I'm just going to provide her with as much information as I can.  I'd be interested in the opinions of just about anyone who has flown with one or more of these indicators.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2014 at 12:31pm
The GI-106 is made by Mid Continent.  It is basically their MD200-306.  There are a couple differences - the knob, numeric direction instead of NESW, and one annunciator is labeled BC on the MD200 and OBS on the GI.  And the GI has a GARMIN label.  I don't know if the annunciator label matters, and the rest is eye candy.

Avidyne doesn't list the Mid Continent indicators as IFD compatible.  Maybe they should.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2014 at 8:55am
The MD200-306 is not our list of supported nav indicators.  The annunciators do matter in that we drive each one from a discrete on the IFD540 and we have not included the BC annunciator support in that stream.  That does matter from a primary nav indicator perspective so at least for now, the MD200-306 is not on our supported list.
Steve Jacobson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2014 at 10:17am
I have a KI 209 which is on the supported list. It is currently being used with a KX-155. The KI 209 has a built-in VOR/LOC converter, which I understand blocks GPS signals and would therefore allow IFD540 use for VHF nav approaches but not GPS approaches. Is that correct?

The KI 209A info on the BK web site indicates that this indicator includes also GPS switching relays which would then also support GPS approaches, but requires an external ACU to meet FAA GPS IFR requirements. Correct here too?

If yes to both the above, which units on the supported list meet both VHF nav and GPS IFR approach requirements without the need for an external ACU switch, if any? Garmin GI 106? Others?

Vince
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2014 at 10:28am
Hi Vince,

Let me check.  I know I only wired the VHF output of the IFD540 to the KI 209 in our test bird but let me check on a few things and try to give a fuller answer.
Steve Jacobson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2014 at 11:56am
Also, I believe the MD200-206 is the Mid-Continent part number equivalent to the Garmin GI-106A p/n, so that should also be acceptable (i.e. could appear on the supported list). The Mid-Continent installation manual for this device has the NAV/GPS/VLOC indications (no BC) and even has the Garmin name on the device.

Vince
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2014 at 12:00pm
Yes, that's true about the Mid-Continent MD200-206 and the IFD540 Install Manual does reflect that.  I'll update the list of gear on the IFD540 Product page in the coming days to reflect that (and some other minor omissions).
Steve Jacobson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2014 at 3:24pm
In further response to Vince's 10:17 post earlier today:

I have a KI 209 which is on the supported list. It is currently being used with a KX-155. The KI 209 has a built-in VOR/LOC converter, which I understand blocks GPS signals and would therefore allow IFD540 use for VHF nav approaches but not GPS approaches. Is that correct?

The KI 209 can only be used for VHF navigation, never with GPS navigation of any type.

The KI 209A info on the BK web site indicates that this indicator includes also GPS switching relays which would then also support GPS approaches, but requires an external ACU to meet FAA GPS IFR requirements. Correct here too?

The KI 209A does support all VHF and GPS navigation in coordination with the IFD; the wiring will be identical to that indicated in the GNS530W manual. The KI 209A uses our GPS Annunciate discrete output to determine when it is in GPS mode, this discrete is wired differently depending on the aircraft power supply voltage. If the aircraft is 28V, then the GPS Annunciate is wired to pin 1 of the KI 209A. If the aircraft is 14V, then the GPS Annunciate is wired to pin 1 & 36 of the KI 209A. This is all described in the KI 209A installation manual. Note: This setup requires both the main and VHF connectors of the IFD be wired to the KI 209A for full VHF and GPS support.

In the case of the 540, we believe the IFD serves and meets the requirements as the annunciator control unit; we control and display the current mode of the KI 209A. I assume the annunciator control unit is listed as a requirement because the KI 209A neither has internal control over what mode (GPS vs. VHF) is active nor provides feedback as to the current mode.

 If yes to both the above, which units on the supported list meet both VHF nav and GPS IFR approach requirements without the need for an external ACU switch, if any? Garmin GI 106? Others?

The IFD serves as the external ACU for the KI 209A.

Steve Jacobson
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Paul View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2014 at 7:07pm
If the KI-209 won't work with GPS approaches  because of the VOR/LOC converter then that would mean the KI-203, KI-204, and KI-208 have the same limitation.

The KI-202 and KI-208A don't have glideslope.

The STec is part of an autopilot system.  The Bendix 500 series, Century, Collins, and Sperry are HSIs.

This leaves three possible navigation indicators - the KI-206, KI-209A, and GI-106A.  All of them should work for both VHF and GPS approaches, right?

A technical question:  Why does the IFD limit indicators with a VOR/LOC converter to radio input only?  I can understand why the GNS 530 did it but that had an analog radio.  The IFD has a digital radio so it must emulate the encoding.  Why doesn't it do this encoding for direction information from the GPS?

I think the annunciator was required with the KI-209A because the original KLN-89 didn't have one.  The KLN-94 had it built-in.  Our 172 has an annunciator connected to the KLN-89B - I don't know if it can be wired to the IFD or if it must be removed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote commodore123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2014 at 1:17pm
I paid for my IFD540 two years ago to be installed and used in my Mooney M-20-F. I do not currently have a GPS so at my annual last year I had my local avionics shop go ahead and install the tray and all the necessary harnesses and plugs, antenna, cables etc so that when the IFD 540 arrived it would be a quick installation. In that process he made and installed the harness for attachement to a Garmin GI 106A indicator. I have seen several KI-206 and Mid-continent 200-2006 indicators that I can buy for much less than the GI106A. Will the connector/plug for the GI 106A work on any of those other two units without having to pay the Avionics shop to make a new harness or change the wiring?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philcook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2014 at 4:02pm
I've seen a few questions to the use of the King KI-206 in lieu of a GI 106A but I've not seen a response from Avidyne. Will the KI206 work in both NAV and GPS mode? The KI-206 appears to be quite a bit less expensive than the Garmin unit and it lets me keep Garmin out of my panel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2014 at 4:38pm
Yes, the KI-206 is compatible with the IFD540 and would work just fine.

There is a long list of compatible nav indicators that can be found several places if you're interested.  Check out this link:

http://www.avidyne.com/products/ifd540/ifd-interfaces.asp

and scroll down to the Nav Indicators section.
Steve Jacobson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote philcook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2014 at 5:04pm
Yes, I've seen that list many times. But as mentioned in the posts above it lists things like the KI209 as being compatible, but then you can't use it in GPS mode, only NAV mode. Sort of defeats the purpose of a GPS and makes me question the "compatibility" of what's listed. Along those lines, if the KI209 can't be used in GPS mode because the internal converter can't be bypassed, can the KI206 (which has no converter) be used in NAV mode as well as GPS mode or will it need a converter to enable it to work in NAV mode?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2014 at 5:14pm
They are all "compatible" to the exact same degree that they worked with the Garmin 530.  For those that could only support Nav and not GPS, that is still the case.

However, I'm pretty sure (typing from the road) that the KI-206 does not have a built in converter like you note and therefore, can handle both Nav and GPS data.  I'll have to verify on Monday if it's still a question for you.

Steve Jacobson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2014 at 5:36pm
The KI-206 is the one without a converter.  If you want a non-Garmin indicator you can use it or the KI-209a.  The KI-206 has parallel movements, the KI-209a has pendulum movements.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flying_Monkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2017 at 10:22am
Originally posted by AviJake AviJake wrote:

The MD200-306 is not our list of supported nav indicators.  The annunciators do matter in that we drive each one from a discrete on the IFD540 and we have not included the BC annunciator support in that stream.  That does matter from a primary nav indicator perspective so at least for now, the MD200-306 is not on our supported list.

Researching Nav indicators and came across this.  on the list of compatible interfaces on the Avidyne website the MD-30X is listed under NAV indicators.  I am assuming this quoted post is old info and now the MD200-306 is supported?  Can you Please confirm.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 May 2017 at 12:57pm
The most recent IFD540 installation manual (rev12) lists the MD200-30X series as compatible on page 41.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rpostmo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 5:03am
I've used the Collins 331H-3g with excellent results with the Garmin 430
and 530.   I suspect it would be compatible.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Collins-ILS-Indicator-331H-3G-pn-522-3306-00-/381724174513?hash=item58e088a8b1:g:9IMAAOSwZVlXo0XB&vxp=mtr

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 6:58pm
The Collins unit may work but unless Avidyne says it is compatible it won't meet the requirement for an indicator.  Best to go with something on the list.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidBunin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2017 at 1:56pm
I used the MD200-306 in my installation.  I did discover an error in the tech pubs (which possibly may have been corrected by now).  Make sure you wire the "VLOC" indication from pin 1 of P1001 to pin 24 at the CDI, which is the "NAV" indication.

Also, wire the "GPS" indication from pin 2 of P1001 to pin 17 at the CDI, which is "GPS".  (I don't think there were any errors with this one.)

David Bunin
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