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User Waypoint as Origin

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AviSteve View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 8:42am
Having the ability to use a user waypoint as the Origin comes up pretty often and I'm fascinated by the desire to have this ability.

The only real thing that an origin does is to provide a means to enter a departure.  You can also enter a runway, but that's really only meaningful to select the runway transition for a departure.  Given that a user waypoint won't have any defined departures, that feature of an origin would be inapplicable.

So, if you were to insert the user waypoint as a "Waypoint" into the flight plan, it would have the same effect.  I will concede that activating that flight plan would activate the leg to the user waypoint instead of the second leg in the flight plan.  But the solution there is to just activate the next leg.

So I'm genuinely curious.  Why is there such a desire to have this feature?  Is it purely because of the extra step of having to activate the second leg or is there more to it?
Steve Lindsley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote afassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 12:45pm
Yes Steve, it is that extra step of having to "remember" or "know" to look at the IFD flight plan and notice that the departure origin is not the proper "color" and that the next waypoint is not the first desired waypoint. 

As an IFD-540 user, who took delivery in March of 2018, that also uses Foreflight, I was very excited to have two-way flightplan transfer available between the IFD-540 and Foreflight.  I was so looking forward to being able to accomplish all of my flight planning on Foreflight and then push that flightplan to an IFD-540 "route".

I did not "know" that the version of Foreflight, at the time, was not coding its flight plan (route) information properly for the IFD-540, so that my departure point was an "Origin" airport, as would happen if the route were added directly on the IFD-540.  The confusion that reigned in my cockpit upon departure, with having this Foreflight "bug" was disconcerting.  Upon noticing the incorrect waypoint, in flight, I quickly would select the proper next waypoint from my FMS page, FPL tab, and then press the DIRECT button and Enter.  I know that this was user error, for not checking the FMS/navigator for being setup properly.  Again, I was NEW to the IFD-540 and its buttonology, and didn't even realize that I could have, on those flights, selected the next waypoint, then the "Activate Leg" LSK.

Well, after learning of the Foreflight flight plan push deficiency (via a telephone call to Avidyne Support), at the time, I made it a part of my procedure flow to always check the IFD-540 to see what the "magenta"/ to waypoint is and adjust/select as necessary.  With a recent Foreflight version update, their flight plans now push to the IFD-540 with my departure airport shown as an "Origin" and the need to "activate leg" for the next waypoint has gone away.

So what does my experience have to do with "User Waypoints" as an "Origin"?
Only that there is a not unreasonable assumption by the aircraft pilot, that the flight plan (route) entered on a navigator starts somewhere, the "origin", and goes somewhere, the next waypoint; and why on God's green Earth would we want to HAVE to worry about the difference in where the "origin" waypoint comes from in our procedure flow.  If I want to fly back to my origin after departure, then I will select it and then Direct To to it.

As I have learned more about the IFD-540 and the fact that it is an incredible FMS, not just a navigator, then and only then have I come to understand the differences to some of the other navigators that many of us have become so familiar with in the past and present.  My eyes were really opened to the logical differences when I attended a training by Gary Reeves of pilotsafety.org called the IFD Mastery Class.  Knowing how something works logically is a must, Ie. the difference of Garmin button "showing what will happen when a press a button" vs. the Avidyne showing "this is what you are seeing now" with this button.  That little bit of learning was huge for me, in beginning to understand and make friends with my IFD-540.

But having to discover all of the little nuances, such as a route or FPL will always have an "Origin" airport displayed and be sequenced to the active leg of the next waypoint, except when it doesn't.  Enough said, I think you get the idea.
Alex Fassas
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allenc3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 2:07pm
You kind of got that right. The 1st time I did a flight plan out of my home airstrip (an airpark not in the database) using a user waypoint as the 1st waypoint, I was a little taken back when my autopilot directed my airplane to do a 180 and head back to my airstrip instead of simply cycling to net next waypoint. My issue should be solved in the next Jep database as they said they are adding my airstrip so I can then use my airstrip as an original just as my 430W would.,   
Claude
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Leonard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 3:05pm
"Having the ability to use a user waypoint as the Origin comes up pretty often"

"Is it purely because of the extra step of having to activate the second leg or is there more to it?"

Comes in real handy operating helicopters in and out of remote places.

Edited by Leonard - 19 Feb 2019 at 3:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DH82FLYER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by AviSteve AviSteve wrote:

.....So I'm genuinely curious.  Why is there such a desire to have this feature?  Is it purely because of the extra step of having to activate the second leg or is there more to it?

Steve,
Part of the problem is that the Pilot Guide is very deficient in explaining these issues. 
The Guide needs to be updated to clarify the limitations of having a User Waypoint as the Departure Airfield. 

Thomas 


Edited by DH82FLYER - 19 Feb 2019 at 5:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote FlyingCOham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2019 at 8:36pm
or just fix it so a user waypoint designated as an airport can be an origin, just saying...
Jim Patton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2019 at 9:26am
Originally posted by AviSteve AviSteve wrote:

You can also enter a runway, but that's really only meaningful to select the runway transition for a departure.

Sorry for the tangent, but it would be nice if selecting a runway would create a button-hook to your flight path - in the direction of the traffic pattern.  Right now, my first leg originates from somewhere that I'm not departing the airport from, I'm assuming the center of the airport or the GPS waypoint of the airport.  This is more noticeable during downwind departures, but I'm always off track on that first leg, and either just ignore it or i have to hit direct to at some point to center it up.  If you enter the runway in your flight plan, the FMS could create a turn towards that leg just like it does when you make changes in flight.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2019 at 10:46am
Originally posted by brou0040 brou0040 wrote:

......If you enter the runway in your flight plan, the FMS could create a turn towards that leg just like it does when you make changes in flight.
I'm not clear how this is different from what the IFD is capable of doing now.
Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2019 at 3:20pm
Originally posted by Bob H Bob H wrote:

Originally posted by brou0040 brou0040 wrote:

......If you enter the runway in your flight plan, the FMS could create a turn towards that leg just like it does when you make changes in flight.
I'm not clear how this is different from what the IFD is capable of doing now.

Maybe I'm using it wrong or mine doesn't work like everybody else's.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2019 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by brou0040 brou0040 wrote:

Maybe I'm using it wrong or mine doesn't work like everybody else's.
I assume that I'm just not understanding the issue.
Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2019 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by brou0040 brou0040 wrote:

Originally posted by AviSteve AviSteve wrote:

You can also enter a runway, but that's really only meaningful to select the runway transition for a departure.

Sorry for the tangent, but it would be nice if selecting a runway would create a button-hook to your flight path - in the direction of the traffic pattern.  Right now, my first leg originates from somewhere that I'm not departing the airport from, I'm assuming the center of the airport or the GPS waypoint of the airport.  This is more noticeable during downwind departures, but I'm always off track on that first leg, and either just ignore it or i have to hit direct to at some point to center it up.  If you enter the runway in your flight plan, the FMS could create a turn towards that leg just like it does when you make changes in flight.

How about this: activate your flight plan after loading it.  Taxi to wherever on the airport grounds you want your first leg starting point to be.  Press the FMS function key and select the WPT tab.  Then on the left select the PPOS LSK and make your selected airport location a user waypoint.  Then go to the FPL tab and position the cursor between your departure airport and your first fix.  Insert your new user waypoint at that position.  Then activate the leg from that position to your first fix (activation step may not be necessary).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2019 at 11:44pm
Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

How about this: activate your flight plan after loading it.  Taxi to wherever on the airport grounds you want your first leg starting point to be.  Press the FMS function key and select the WPT tab.  Then on the left select the PPOS LSK and make your selected airport location a user waypoint.  Then go to the FPL tab and position the cursor between your departure airport and your first fix.  Insert your new user waypoint at that position.  Then activate the leg from that position to your first fix (activation step may not be necessary).
I think this is a good suggestion given the posited scenario, , but I still don't understand what it accomplishes.  Unless the first leg being flown is aligned with the runway the CDI will still be "off-track" almost immediately, which shouldn't be considered a problem anyway.  We takeoff; we turn on course; simple.  The CDI gives us useful information in all positions.  It just isn't necessary or useful to force the CDI to be "on-track".  I still feel that I must be missing the gist of this issue.
Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2019 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by Bob H Bob H wrote:

Unless the first leg being flown is aligned with the runway the CDI will still be "off-track" almost immediately, which shouldn't be considered a problem anyway.  We takeoff; we turn on course; simple.  The CDI gives us useful information in all positions.  It just isn't necessary or useful to force the CDI to be "on-track".  I still feel that I must be missing the gist of this issue.

I don't think it's doing anything "wrong", but I disagree that it is not useful to change the behavior to have the CDI be "on-track".  By your logic, why does Avidyne do button hooks while in flight instead of going simply point to point?  I'm just asking that it apply the same logic to the first leg.  On downwind departures, I don't want to fly my outbound leg against the inbound path to the runway, where the autopilot will take me when it centers the CDI.  Are there other ways to address this, sure, but I just think using logic already in the unit to allow for a turn on course would make this a cleaner solution.


Edited by brou0040 - 25 Feb 2019 at 3:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2019 at 11:27pm

Originally posted by brou0040 brou0040 wrote:

I don't think it's doing anything "wrong", but I disagree that it is not useful to change the behavior to have the CDI be "on-track".  By your logic, why does Avidyne do button hooks while in flight instead of going simply point to point?  I'm just asking that it apply the same logic to the first leg.  On downwind departures, I don't want to fly my outbound leg against the inbound path to the runway, where the autopilot will take me when it centers the CDI.  Are there other ways to address this, sure, but I just think using logic already in the unit to allow for a turn on course would make this a cleaner solution.
Frankly, I’m not familiar with the Button Hook feature of the IFD.  I had to go look it up in the manual.  Here is what it says: Depending upon the relative geometry of the To waypoint and the aircraft position/direction of flight at the time of waypoint activation, track may not necessarily be a straight line but include a button hook at the beginning.  This seems to indicate that the Button Hook logic is always active, but only comes into play when the geometry meets certain criteria.  A Button Hook from takeoff to a downwind departure would be unique for every airport in the country and apparently not dependent on the current Button Hook geometric logic.  Downwind is just one of many ways to depart an airport, based on traffic patterns, weather, ATC, geography, traffic congestion, obstructions, notams, etc.  So unless I've gotten the Button Hook all wrong, it doesn't seem that the logic for a downwind Button Hook is already in the IFD, or that it would be simplistic to add it.  But certainly, that's no reason you shouldn't ask that it be added.

Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allenc3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2019 at 1:46am
Uploaded the latest Jepp database, and again selected my home airpark (7FL4). Thanks to the Avidyne folks and Capt Jeppesen, I can now enter my home airpark as an original waypoint without doing any mental gymnastics. Yeah!

Finally got the IDF100 to talk to the 440 (databases synced) and even the training system is using the new database (7FL4 works their too).

One thing though. On my Minis I can get the training system to be IDF 440's but on my Big Ipad I cannot get it out of IDF540 mode. Anyone know how to do that without reconfiguring the databases again?

Claude

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HenryM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2019 at 1:09pm
On my iPad Pro 10.5" I go to Settings -> IFD Trainer, and set what device I want under Device Type. I can choose IFD550, IFD540 or IFD440.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote allenc3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2019 at 12:52pm
Yeah, I figured that out. When they were talking about settings, I thought they were talking about setup under the AUX key. Did not even think about settings on the ipads themselves. I am a slow learner, but everything is ok now.
Claude
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