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The Boeing Banana

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oskrypuch View Drop Down
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    Posted: 25 Feb 2018 at 11:03pm
For anyone still wondering what this is all about, read on.

This is one of the coolest new features in the 10.2.1 update. Here is a screen grab from the 10.2.1 updated simulator. Down thread I posted some RW shots.



The Boeing Banana (Avidyne Plantain) is noted with the red arrow. Here the next controlling altitude restriction is level at 7000ft at NUBER. The green arc shows where the aircraft will cross that altitude, in the climb, given its current climb rate. The aircraft is on an intercept heading for the magenta line outlined course, as such the green arc is displaced in the direction of travel of the aircraft. The required VS (VSR) can also be displayed, and here it is shown in a datablock just below the COM frequencies and signified Nav Mode.

Works the same way in the descent. Wonderful to confirm that you will make any ATC instructed, or approach required altitude constraints. The IFDs load all the approach minimums automatically, when you load an approach.




Here the next controlling altitude constraint is 3000ft at URMER, inserted from the procedure. We are headed to IPVOB (IAF). You can see that listed on the right in the flight strip. The altitude constraint at URMER is not drawn on the map view, as it is decluttered with the current map range.




Finally, having turned final on the LPV approach, but before the FAF. The FAF at OTVUG is shown with an auto-filled not-below 2400ft constraint, and a calculated VSR of -507 fpm given our current position & altitude. At that descent rate, the banana is nicely on the FAF, so we should reach it at the correct altitude. ADSAN is a step down fix, which doesn't apply for the LPV.


Also makes it very easy to fly a continuous approach profile (CDAP) for a non-precision approach, you just put the banana on the airport, and fly it in down to minimums.

Very nice stuff!

I'll be updating the firmware this week, so will get some real in-air pics posted shortly.

* Orest




Edited by oskrypuch - 03 Mar 2018 at 10:42pm
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oskrypuch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2018 at 4:18pm
Well, I've been up in the air with 10.2.1 and the Banana, and I LOVE IT. No surprise.

Here are some pics.

It was just a quick run around the local patch. Set 7500 as a restriction on JARVS.




In the air, and in the climb. Calculated VSR of +350 fpm or so, I'll be at 7500 ft before JARVS as the banana shows.



Loaded the approach up, all the altitude constraints populated. I prefer 3000ft at OVUTU, so changed it.



And, down we go, adjusting the descent rate, keeping the banana nicely tracking to the IF, at OVUTU.




Didn't get any shots on the approach, it was too bumpy.

* Orest
Father of Avidyne's Boeing Banana


Edited by oskrypuch - 01 Mar 2018 at 4:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cruiser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2018 at 5:19pm
"Also makes it very easy to fly a continuous approach profile (CDAP) for a non-precision approach, you just put the banana on the airport, and fly it in."

How do you set the data for the green arc "banana"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2018 at 5:26pm
Originally posted by Cruiser Cruiser wrote:

"Also makes it very easy to fly a continuous approach profile (CDAP) for a non-precision approach, you just put the banana on the airport, and fly it in."

How do you set the data for the green arc "banana"

You don't separately set the data for the banana, that is part of the elegance. The banana provides vertical guidance to the next commanding altitude constraint that you have set, or one that has been auto-loaded from an approach.

But, for the purposes of flying a CDAP (CANPA), all it needs is the airport elevation (plus a bit for safety) as an altitude constraint, and you fly a constant descent by commanding the descent rate that keeps the banana on the field.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 28 Mar 2018 at 1:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobsV35B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2018 at 6:36pm
What determines the angle flown!

If you are executing a non precision approach to a minima of 400 and 1, yet flying an angle of three degrees, you will reach the MDA before you can see the runway.  Ease of operation is one thing, but it is nice to make something that works LEGALLY. <G>

Happy Skies,

Old Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2018 at 11:07pm
Originally posted by BobsV35B BobsV35B wrote:

What determines the angle flown!

If you are executing a non precision approach to a minima of 400 and 1, yet flying an angle of three degrees, you will reach the MDA before you can see the runway.  Ease of operation is one thing, but it is nice to make something that works LEGALLY. <G>

Happy Skies,

Old Bob

Please explain what part of the banana is ILLEGAL.  What do you typically do when you reach the MDA before you see the runway if you don't have a banana?


Edited by brou0040 - 01 Mar 2018 at 11:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 2018 at 11:17pm
Originally posted by BobsV35B BobsV35B wrote:

What determines the angle flown!

If you are executing a non precision approach to a minima of 400 and 1, yet flying an angle of three degrees, you will reach the MDA before you can see the runway.  Ease of operation is one thing, but it is nice to make something that works LEGALLY. <G>

Happy Skies,

Old Bob

Old Bob,

It that instance, you just pick a target altitude of 400 ft AGL, and fly to that, then level if need be. Of course you could fly an incorrect profile, but you won't if you pick the numbers correctly. This type of profile has been standard procedure in Part 121 flying NPA for some years. The banana just makes it easier, and it provides instant feedback to close the error loop.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 01 Mar 2018 at 11:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CardinalRG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2018 at 1:25am
Originally posted by oskrypuch oskrypuch wrote:

* Orest
Father of Avidyne's Boeing Banana
Thanks for the Banana, "Dad".  And off course...... thanks Avidyne.
NICE feature.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobsV35B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2018 at 10:24am
Good Mprning Bro, I prefer to fly an NPA the way it was deigned to be flown. Descend to the MDA and fly level to the MAP. If the runway is not sighted in time to make comfortable descent, take a miss. Worked for me in evething I flew from the DC-3 to the classic 747. (4.2 degrees works well for most NPAs.)

Happy Skies, Old Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2018 at 10:41am
Originally posted by BobsV35B BobsV35B wrote:

Good Mprning Bro, I prefer to fly an NPA the way it was deigned to be flown....

Well dive & drive vs "new think" CDAP is always a lively discussion, but this isn't really the place for it. 

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 02 Mar 2018 at 10:43am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2018 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by oskrypuch oskrypuch wrote:

Originally posted by BobsV35B BobsV35B wrote:

Good Mprning Bro, I prefer to fly an NPA the way it was deigned to be flown....

Well dive & drive vs "new think" CDAP is always a lively discussion, but this isn't really the place for it. 

* Orest

https://www.scribd.com/document/42065511/Boeing-737-Supplement-1-CDAP-Profiles

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2018 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by BobsV35B BobsV35B wrote:

Good Mprning Bro, I prefer to fly an NPA the way it was deigned to be flown. Descend to the MDA and fly level to the MAP. If the runway is not sighted in time to make comfortable descent, take a miss. Worked for me in evething I flew from the DC-3 to the classic 747. (4.2 degrees works well for most NPAs.)

Happy Skies, Old Bob

Got it, but the banana doesn't do anything to violate that, much less anything illegal.  The banana is not for primary vertical guidance, it's a useful reference, just like the vertical speed required datablock.  How you use that useful reference as you make your descent is up to you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nrproces Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2018 at 3:45pm
"CDFA" approaches started at Brand X in the late 80's, and they have been the approved solution for 20 years or so, I guess that you didn't do them in the 200, but we did them in the 3 holer.  Give them a shot it is very easy concept.



note: we called them "CARD" (constant angle rated descent)   (here is a link to a discussion about them, they are different then the Dive n Drive we old guys learned)


http://www.ifr-magazine.com/issues/1_4/features/Constant-Angle-Descent_32-1.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobsV35B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2018 at 9:40pm
Hi Sauce,  

Orest will (properly) bawl me out for continuing this thread, but the data you present is very good and does spell out methods to assure that a modified CANPA approach does have adequate terrain clearance. Merely flying Canpa without considering the possibility of busting an MDA is the right thing to do. My gripe is that folks will try to adapt the approach without the due diligence your company has used. It ain't as simple as just flying a constant angle!

Happy Skies,

Old Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobsV35B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2018 at 9:44pm
DARN! I meant to say "is NOT the right thing to do".  Orest is right. I should slink back into my hole!!

Sorry 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2018 at 10:04pm
Bob, don't slink anywhere.

Dive and drive is a long practiced (successful) method of flying a NPA. But, flying a constant angle stabilized approach has operational benefits in many, if not most instances.

Regardless, no matter the method of execution, respecting the minimums is integral to any proper approach technique. I don't think anyone would counsel otherwise.

In any case, getting back to the topic of the thread, the banana could equally well assist in both styles of approach execution.

* Orest

Edited by oskrypuch - 03 Mar 2018 at 10:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nrproces Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 10:23am
Bob my guess from your place of abode is the you flew for that other Whale carrier across the Pacific, I flew for the one that got merged by the Georgia Mafia. LOL   The generic was a great ol bird, but like everything else in life, stuff changes...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mgrimes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2018 at 12:13pm
I had my first chance to review this new feature in real world conditions recently and I really like it.  It was worth the upgrade just for this one item. Thanks for pushing this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote rsharp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2018 at 3:47pm
I like the way you setup the IFD datablocks on the left side.
I assume you receive the OAT with an Air Data Computer connection?
Thanks for the insights!
Randy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2018 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by mgrimes mgrimes wrote:

I had my first chance to review this new feature in real world conditions recently and I really like it.  It was worth the upgrade just for this one item. Thanks for pushing this.
Mike

Entirely concur. This is one of the best, and unique, new features, in a long time.

I love it!

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2018 at 7:40pm
I think the banana needs to be more than one pixel wide.   I think it gets lost on the screen sometimes, especially in installations like a Bonanza where the IFDs are off to the right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teeth6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2018 at 7:29pm
What a wonderful addition.  I've flown with the banana several times now and love it.  Thanks for being persistent, Orest.  I do agree with Gring, that it should be a little bolder.  It is a bit hard to pick out at times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2018 at 8:01pm
Well, you're welcome. 

I'm tickled pink with it, or rather green I guess!

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 26 Mar 2018 at 8:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2018 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by rsharp rsharp wrote:

I like the way you setup the IFD datablocks on the left side.
I assume you receive the OAT with an Air Data Computer connection?

Yes, the OAT comes from my JPI 830.

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kentucky Captain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2018 at 6:45am
Originally posted by oskrypuch oskrypuch wrote:

Originally posted by rsharp rsharp wrote:

I like the way you setup the IFD datablocks on the left side.
I assume you receive the OAT with an Air Data Computer connection?

Yes, the OAT comes from my JPI 830.

* Orest



I'll be getting the 10.2.1 update next week.  The question I have now is, and I'm guessing not but will the banana show up on my Aspen too?  That would be most helpful since I really don't look at the IFD too much once I have the programing done.  The Aspen has most of the information that I need for navigation and approaches.

Spending my kid's inheritance, one upgrade at a time.
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Sadly no, that would be up to ASPEN.

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LarryPetro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2018 at 3:42pm
Tuesday, I'm also having my IFD440s updated to 10.2.1.  Will the banana display on my Avidyne EX5000 MFD?

Edited by LarryPetro - 07 Apr 2018 at 3:45pm
Larry Petro - Columbia 350 @ KFME
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LANCE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2018 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by LarryPetro LarryPetro wrote:

Tuesday, I'm also having my IFD440s updated to 10.2.1.  Will the banana display on my Avidyne EX5000 MFD?

No, but you could put a Chiquita Banana sticker on your EX5000.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LarryPetro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 9:30pm
Originally posted by LANCE LANCE wrote:

Originally posted by LarryPetro LarryPetro wrote:

Tuesday, I'm also having my IFD440s updated to 10.2.1.  Will the banana display on my Avidyne EX5000 MFD?

No, but you could put a Chiquita Banana sticker on your EX5000.

Half of your answer is what I was expecting, although I hoped for better.  I'm headed to the grocery now to get the sticker.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KIM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2018 at 5:04am
Originally posted by teeth6 teeth6 wrote:

What a wonderful addition.  I've flown with the banana several times now and love it.  Thanks for being persistent, Orest.  I do agree with Gring, that it should be a little bolder.  It is a bit hard to pick out at times.
+1!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 11:32am
As suggested, I have modified the banana to be a thicker line.  Will be included in 10.3.


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THANKS, Steve!
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Thanks much
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Msieger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 5:32pm
I like the thicker banana. Can we make the TOD circle a tad bit bigger also????????

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by Msieger Msieger wrote:

I like the thicker banana. Can we make the TOD circle a tad bit bigger also????????

Mike
If you give a mouse a cookie ...  :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 6:59pm
An EVEN BETTER Banana!

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teeth6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2018 at 10:25am
Awesome.  Thanks for being so responsive to suggestions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teeth6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2018 at 5:36pm
Is there a plan to include the Boeing Banana in a future IFD 100 update?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2018 at 6:08pm
I have the latest version of the IFD100 app and it shows the "Banana" just fine when WiFi connected to my IFD540 running sw 10.2.1.0.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GBSoren71965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2018 at 7:18pm
Same for me, IFD100 and IFD440 both show it. I use it far more on the IFD100.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LANCE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2018 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by teeth6 teeth6 wrote:

Is there a plan to include the Boeing Banana in a future IFD 100 update?

No plan just a plantain.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teeth6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2018 at 1:11pm
No plan just a plantain.[/QUOTE]

I like that!!!  Very cute :).  I"ll have to check again on my next flight.  I looked for the banana on the IFD 100 and didn't see it last flight when it did appear on my 540
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teeth6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2018 at 7:44pm
So I flew today and did not see the banana on the IFD 100 when it did appear on my 540. I have the latest version of the IFD 100 and it says compatible with 10.2.1.  What could I be missing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2018 at 1:40am
I also did not see it on my IFD100 with IFD440
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