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TAS-A display question (for Avidyne)

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ddgates View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01 Aug 2018 at 10:25am
Hooray, -A is finished (or at least first -A software revision).

Questions:
1.  Compared to the non-A box, there is a DSub change and one wire run (to IFD for position source) - right?  Or is there more?
2.  If the non-A TAS is now displaying on the IFDs, are there any changes in configuration or wiring to make there?  RS-232
3.  If the non-A TAS is now displaying on Aspen boxes via ARINC, are there any changes to make there?
4.  If one also has a Skytrax-100, then for the IFDs it makes sense to only use the weather input, right?
5.  Are there any other considerations I should bring to the attention of my avionics shop?

Thanks so much.
David Gates
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2018 at 11:23am
1.  Compared to the non-A box, there is a DSub change and one wire run (to IFD for position source) - right?  Or is there more?
The TAS-A has two sets of connectors; one for compatibility with non-A installations and another with more interfaces that can be used in new installations.  In most installations there will not be a connector change when upgrading to TAS-A (the only difference is that the non-A connector COM1 is not available on TAS–A units).  A connection for the position source will need to be added in order to support ADS-B In.  If you are upgrading from a non-A box and there is a spare RS-232 or ARINC-429 connection available for a position input on the 25-pin DSub, then the position source connection can be added to the existing connector.

2.  If the non-A TAS is now displaying on the IFDs, are there any changes in configuration or wiring to make there?  RS-232
No.  The TAS-A should support all of the existing non-A interfaces without the need to modify wiring or configuration.

3.  If the non-A TAS is now displaying on Aspen boxes via ARINC, are there any changes to make there?
No.  The TAS-A should support all of the existing non-A interfaces without the need to modify wiring or configuration.

4.  If one also has a Skytrax-100, then for the IFDs it makes sense to only use the weather input, right?
Yes, that is the preferred arrangement.

5.  Are there any other considerations I should bring to the attention of my avionics shop?
When upgrading to TAS-A (or upgrading an existing TAS-A to add ADS-B support) there is a need to configure the TAS-A unit.  By default the ADS-B functionality is disabled so that upgrades can be done without making wiring changes.  Once a position source has been connected, then ADS-B will need to be enabled and the ownship ICAO address will need to be programmed into the TAS-A in order for the ADS-B In function to operate properly.

Steve Lindsley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2018 at 12:16pm
Very helpful, thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2018 at 2:58pm
How is the functionality enabled and configured? Is it through a Laptop and USB connection? Or is it through a USB stick with additional code? I already have a -A which plugged directly in place of my standard TAS unit.

Does this mean that in TAS installations, the wire harness connects to one connector and in a TAS/A installation the wire harness is moved and connected to a different connector with additional inputs for the connection to the WAAS unit?

Edited by Gring - 01 Aug 2018 at 3:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2018 at 9:57am
How is the functionality enabled and configured? Is it through a Laptop and USB connection? Or is it through a USB stick with additional code? I already have a -A which plugged directly in place of my standard TAS unit.
Configuration is accomplished with a computer connected to one of the TAS-A RS-232 interfaces.  A USB to RS-232 conversion cable may be required for the computer.

Does this mean that in TAS installations, the wire harness connects to one connector and in a TAS/A installation the wire harness is moved and connected to a different connector with additional inputs for the connection to the WAAS unit?
The TAS-A has 25-pin and 15-pin DSub connectors that are directly compatible with the same connectors on the TAS unit.  When replacing a TAS with a TAS-A it is most convenient to use these “legacy” connectors to simplify installation.  Most installations of the TAS units did not use the 9-pin connector; however, if the 9-pin connector is in use it will have to be moved to an unused interface on another connector.

The TAS-A also has 78-pin and 32-pin high-density D connectors.  The 78-pin connector duplicates all of the interfaces found on the 25-pin and 15-pin connectors, and adds some more.  The 32-pin connector provides even more interfaces, but at present they are unused.  In a new installation of the TAS-A we recommend using the 78-pin connector instead of the 25-pin and 15-pin since it requires only one connector and has more interfaces than the combination of the other two.  There is nothing preventing a new installation from using the 25-pin and 15-pin connector; however, the same interface cannot be used on both the 78-pin connector and either the 25 or 15 pin connector.

Since the ADS-B functionality of TAS-A requires a position input this will have to be added.  The TAS-A will accept position on any ARINC-429 input or RS-232 interface.  It is possible when replacing a TAS with a TAS-A (or in an installation that uses the 25-pin and 15-pin connectors of the TAS-A) that there are no more interfaces available on the 25-pin connector.  If this happens there are two options:
  1. Continue using the 25-pin and 15-pin connectors as before and add a connection for position to an unused interface on the 78-pin connector.
  2. Move all of the connections from the 25-pin connector (and 15-pin connector if desired) to the 78-pin connector and connect position to an unused interface.

Steve Lindsley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2018 at 11:16am
Great information, thanks, I've forwarded it all to my shop.

I have a certificate for the free upgrade of my TAS605. I assume my shop will need to make the arrangements directly, any idea when the exchange program will start up?

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2018 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by oskrypuch oskrypuch wrote:

Great information, thanks, I've forwarded it all to my shop.

I have a certificate for the free upgrade of my TAS605. I assume my shop will need to make the arrangements directly, any idea when the exchange program will start up?

* Orest

Probably next week, but give it an extra week just to be safe.  There will be a press release and a list of answers to FAQs.  My sources say it's not an exchange program, though.  You'll send the unit in and we'll upgrade it.  Look for those details in the press release.
Steve Lindsley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2018 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by AviSteve AviSteve wrote:

...
Probably next week, but give it an extra week just to be safe. 

Thanks Steve!

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n7ifr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2018 at 9:58am
With the soon to be available TAS-A for our IFDx40 display, it occurs to me this long awaited "Upgrade" also Orphans our MLB100/Skytrax100 (980 Hz ADSB).

Is there is a way to incorporate the MLB/Skytrax100 980 ADSB IN giving us Dual IN receive with the new and improved TAS-A (1090 ADSB)?

What to do with our MLB/Skytrax units other than receive Wx?

Tom Wolf
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2018 at 10:37am
Originally posted by n7ifr n7ifr wrote:

With the soon to be available TAS-A for our IFDx40 display, it occurs to me this long awaited "Upgrade" also Orphans our MLB100/Skytrax100 (980 Hz ADSB).
...

Yes, you can only have one traffic input to a display device. The Skytrax or Freeflight or other units would supply FIS-A weather only.

As I understand it, there is no way to combine two separate traffic inputs (TIS, TIS-A 1090 or 978 or TAS), external to the TAS unit.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 04 Aug 2018 at 10:37am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n7ifr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2018 at 10:39am
Orest - Thanks for reply... 
So then sounds like there is no way for Avidyne users to have Dual ADSB IN ...

Unfortunately, better solution (for now, despite TAS-A) is GTX345 (instead of AXP340) combining straight TAS + its built in Dual ADSB into composite signal out to IFDx40's and Aspens (with unlock)

Tom


Edited by n7ifr - 04 Aug 2018 at 11:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2018 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by n7ifr n7ifr wrote:

Orest - Thanks for reply... 
So then sounds like there is no way for Avidyne users to have Dual ADSB IN ...

Unfortunately, better solution (for now, despite TAS-A) is GTX345 (instead of AXP340) combining straight TAS + its built in Dual ADSB into composite signal out to IFDx40's and Aspens (with unlock)

I've had an L3 Lynx 9000+ and IFD440 installed for years now.  The 9000+ model provides Dual ASB-In, merged with Skywatch TAS traffic, to my EX5000 MFD and my IFD440, as well as on its own screen. And the Lynx has wifi that sends merged traffic and ADS-B weather to ForeFlight on my iPad.  Garmin's 345 doesn't compare IMHO.  Plus, Avidyne and L3 are working together now, so the L3/Avidyne purchases I made back when are cheaper to acquire now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n7ifr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2018 at 3:20pm
Thank you Catani for reply.

Agree, the L3 NGT9000+ is a great solution, playing with both Avidyne and Aspens, despite large antenna on top.

Unfortunately for me, I already have TAS605 which would be wasted (especially since not worth much on the used market).  Curious why you say Lynx is better than the GTX345 other than the separate display on transponder.

Does anybody know what determines which info is sent out on the Avidyne x40 WiFi to iPad Apps... wondering if the 540 WiFi would send both:
  . TAS-A composite Traffic (1090 In and TAS In)
  . and Skytrax100/MLB Wx

Tom Wolf


Edited by n7ifr - 04 Aug 2018 at 3:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2018 at 6:11pm
OK - what is the ideal configuration for someone with IFDs and a glass PFD/MFD?  TAS-A should be good - my understanding this will give us active interrogation on 1090 MHz, ADS-B out on 1090 from adjacent aircraft - but also TIS-R on 1090 if I am in a service area.  Is this right?

That seems pretty comprehensive but not all encompassing.

Where does an ADS-B receive box fit into this?  Is the MLB100 enough, or do I NEED dual frequency?  What about audio call outs? What about display on PFD/MFD (in my case, Aspens)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2018 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

I've had an L3 Lynx 9000+ and IFD440 installed for years now.  ...

Very nice setup. The L3 9000+ is a super bit of gear.

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2018 at 1:39am
Originally posted by n7ifr n7ifr wrote:

Thank you Catani for reply.

Agree, the L3 NGT9000+ is a great solution, playing with both Avidyne and Aspens, despite large antenna on top.

Unfortunately for me, I already have TAS605 which would be wasted (especially since not worth much on the used market).  Curious why you say Lynx is better than the GTX345 other than the separate display on transponder.

No large antenna was added on top of my plane with the Lynx.  The TAS module of the Lynx uses the same traffic antenna as the SkyWatch it replaced; the WAAS GPS module uses a combo com/WAAS antenna that is very similar to the com antenna it replaced.

It's not a question of whether the TAS605 would be wasted, it's a question whether the alternative to the Lynx provides a better price/capability option.  For example, if the Lynx is the same price as the alternative, and provides a better ADS-B/TAS unit, install the Lynx and take out the TAS605.  Don't go the other way and buy lesser box just so you can say you didn't waste the TAS605.  For every piece of gear we have, we enjoy it while it's new and relevant, and at some point, we take it out when it no longer delivers.  Our planes will hopefully, in time, outlast the usefulness of anything we put in them.  And you might save some weight sometimes - I did when I removed a fully functioning SkyWatch box from my plane and replaced it with a Lynx 9000+ in order to get the merged-icon traffic capability.  The Skywatch wasn't worth anything on the market either, but I saved 8 pounds.

The Lynx is better than the 345 because it is compatible with the Avidyne 5000C MFD I have, and can internally merge TAS and dual-channel ADS-B traffic into a single icon for aircraft identifying on both ADS-B and TAS, and display that on my MFD.  Garmin 345 traffic can't do that.  I also doubt any company can beat L3's software logic for evaluating whether a target is a threat requiring an aural alert, or can be ignored.  Nuisance alerts are not a problem with the Lynx.  The Lynx is also better because it has its own screen to show both traffic and weather info, adding real value and utility, and the screen is big enough for what it does.  The Lynx is also better because it has its own internal GPS, which means there are no installation, connection, compatibility or other issues that might degrade ADS-B performance below acceptable standards when your transponder is relying upon another box.  Not only that, but it spares you the need to figure out which box - the transponder or the GPS or the wiring between them - is responsible for the ADS-B performance failure.  With a Lynx 9000+, if ADS-B Out performance fails, troubleshooting is a lot easier.  Finally, the Lynx is better because it has its own wifi network, which can be used to display its TAS and ADS-B traffic to your iPad on ForeFlight, as well as ADS-B weather.  I may have missed a few things.


Edited by Catani - 05 Aug 2018 at 1:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stiletto1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2018 at 6:56am
Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

The Lynx is better than the 345 because it is compatible with the Avidyne 5000C MFD I have, and can internally merge TAS and dual-channel ADS-B traffic into a single icon for aircraft identifying on both ADS-B and TAS, and display that on my MFD.  Garmin 345 traffic can't do that.  I also doubt any company can beat L3's software logic for evaluating whether a target is a threat requiring an aural alert, or can be ignored.  Nuisance alerts are not a problem with the Lynx.  The Lynx is also better because it has its own screen to show both traffic and weather info, adding real value and utility, and the screen is big enough for what it does.  The Lynx is also better because it has its own internal GPS, which means there are no installation, connection, compatibility or other issues that might degrade ADS-B performance below acceptable standards when your transponder is relying upon another box.  Not only that, but it spares you the need to figure out which box - the transponder or the GPS or the wiring between them - is responsible for the ADS-B performance failure.  With a Lynx 9000+, if ADS-B Out performance fails, troubleshooting is a lot easier.  Finally, the Lynx is better because it has its own wifi network, which can be used to display its TAS and ADS-B traffic to your iPad on ForeFlight, as well as ADS-B weather.  I may have missed a few things.



6 of one, half dozen of the other. The 345 is also dual band in and may be interfaced with a compatible TAS to merge traffic data - though I don't see the cost benefit of doing this when dual band ADSB will see most everything TAS can see (at least in the US) and neither will see non-transponder equipped aircraft anyway.

The 345 is available with its' own internal WAAS (optional), has a Bluetooth connection to provide GPS position to an iPad App, and will display traffic and weather on your iPad, navigator, and most PFD/MFD's. The 345 can also revert to a GPS position source provided by a compatible navigator should the internal source loose integrity. 345 also has traffic threat audio warnings - don't know if one is better than the other but the 345 can be set by the user to annunciate traffic within certain proximity of your aircraft. The 345 has no screen of it's own but is available in both a panel mount or a remote configuration - remote is of benefit to many to save panel real estate but is not compatible with IFD's.

The L3 and 345 are both good "full suite" boxes - which is "better" is more a matter of your needs and compatibility with other equipment.

Edited by Stiletto1 - 05 Aug 2018 at 6:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2018 at 12:57am
Originally posted by Stiletto1 Stiletto1 wrote:

 6 of one, half dozen of the other. The 345 is also dual band in and may be interfaced with a compatible TAS to merge traffic data - though I don't see the cost benefit of doing this when dual band ADSB will see most everything TAS can see (at least in the US) and neither will see non-transponder equipped aircraft anyway.

The 345 is available with its' own internal WAAS (optional), has a Bluetooth connection to provide GPS position to an iPad App, and will display traffic and weather on your iPad, navigator, and most PFD/MFD's. The 345 can also revert to a GPS position source provided by a compatible navigator should the internal source loose integrity. 345 also has traffic threat audio warnings - don't know if one is better than the other but the 345 can be set by the user to annunciate traffic within certain proximity of your aircraft. The 345 has no screen of it's own but is available in both a panel mount or a remote configuration - remote is of benefit to many to save panel real estate but is not compatible with IFD's.

The L3 and 345 are both good "full suite" boxes - which is "better" is more a matter of your needs and compatibility with other equipment.
The L3 is better because it does not have to be interfaced with another box to get TAS.  I disagree completely with your position that TAS does not add much.  The reason it does is because most aircraft have Mode C transponders, and many if not most of them will not be ADS-B Out equipped any time soon.  A TAS box, whether separate or like the Lynx part of the box, will interrogate, locate and provide traffic info for those aircraft.  

While the FAA's ADS-R will supply the same info, you have to be in range and have enough altitude to pick up those transmitters.  In many airports, the traffic pattern is too low to pick up ADS-R info.  The Lynx saves the day by interrogating both Mode C aircraft (most planes), and ADS-B aircraft (some planes) while in the pattern or remote locations.  It cannot interrogate an airplane with no Mode C or ADS-B Out of course, but that leaves a much smaller fleet of invisible airplanes than does a 345 with no TAS.  You will need to buy some additional equipment.  ADS-B In as your sole traffic source is quite limited if you are unable to pick up the FAA's ADS-B transmitters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stiletto1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2018 at 6:23am
Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:


The L3 is better because it does not have to be interfaced with another box to get TAS.  I disagree completely with your position that TAS does not add much.  The reason it does is because most aircraft have Mode C transponders, and many if not most of them will not be ADS-B Out equipped any time soon.  A TAS box, whether separate or like the Lynx part of the box, will interrogate, locate and provide traffic info for those aircraft. 

While the FAA's ADS-R will supply the same info, you have to be in range and have enough altitude to pick up those transmitters.  In many airports, the traffic pattern is too low to pick up ADS-R info.  The Lynx saves the day by interrogating both Mode C aircraft (most planes), and ADS-B aircraft (some planes) while in the pattern or remote locations.  It cannot interrogate an airplane with no Mode C or ADS-B Out of course, but that leaves a much smaller fleet of invisible airplanes than does a 345 with no TAS.  You will need to buy some additional equipment.  ADS-B In as your sole traffic source is quite limited if you are unable to pick up the FAA's ADS-B transmitters.


Like I said, they are both good boxes depending upon your needs and other equipment.

The L3 with internal TAS is of course a more expensive option if you are worried about not being able to eyeball the few Mode-C equipped traffic flying down in the weeds that ADSB can't see - of course, this is where most of the non-transponder equipped aircraft are that TAS can't see either. Otherwise, there is little airspace not yet covered by ADSB.

Neither option offers a complete traffic awareness solution - but I'm in the camp of something is in fact better than nothing, especially when flying in haze.

If all aircraft had at least ADSB out then dual band would have you covered everywhere, but there are too many paranoid cowboys for that to happen anytime soon.


Edited by Stiletto1 - 06 Aug 2018 at 6:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n7ifr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2018 at 9:24am
Thanks for the L3 summary - tell me more about antenna choices.
Since I never had Skywatch (just TAS605) antenna, the L3 would orphan my TAS box (yes, worth a fraction of the retail cost because of the competition)...

But to receive full function TAS interrogated traffic (and of course dual ADSB), what are the options for best antenna/traffic reception?

Thanks

Tom W.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2018 at 11:58am
Originally posted by n7ifr n7ifr wrote:

...But to receive full function TAS interrogated traffic (and of course dual ADSB), what are the options for best antenna/traffic reception?

My TAS antenna is on top of the cabin area towards the front.  Antenna location for any device can be critical both for reception and to avoid interference with other antennas and equipment.  So best to put this question to a good avionics shop that can give you the right answer from past professional experience.  So far as I know, the ADS-B antenna uses my old transponder antenna (because that's what an ADS-B transponder is) for both ADS-B Out and In.  But I could be wrong, I just know the antennas I have work thanks to a shop who knew where to put them. That's the place to go for technical questions, as well as telephone tech support for the product you decide to buy.


Edited by Catani - 06 Aug 2018 at 12:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n7ifr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2018 at 1:43pm
Again, thanks.
But as I recall, there are options like "D+" or just "+" for receiving the TAS traffic on Lynx.

I also noticed a brand new (Aug.2, 2018) Avidyne Add showing a special with L3 Lynx receiver with IFD550... 
Maybe Avidyne will have a replacement solution for our orphaned Skytrax100/MLB - Like a way to use the L3 Lynx9000 for dual ADSB IN and interface our TAS605??

Tom W. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2018 at 12:04am
The "D" indicates a Lynx that connects to two antennas - one on top and one on the bottom.  It's for large metal airplanes.  Not really applicable to GA 4 to 6 seaters, according to my shop.

The "+" indicates the Lynx includes TAS interrogation and display of Mode C aircraft.  It does this without need to be in range of an FAA ADS-B out transmitter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n7ifr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2018 at 12:11am
Thanks for info. 

I will look into pricing on the 9000(+) as I await to see what dust settles on the "free" TAS "A" saga and upgrade.

Tom W.



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Originally posted by Stiletto1 Stiletto1 wrote:

[QUOTE=Catani]
The L3 is better because it does not have to be interfaced with another box to get TAS.  I disagree completely with your position that TAS does not add much.  The reason it does is because most aircraft have Mode C transponders, and many if not most of them will not be ADS-B Out equipped any time soon.  A TAS box, whether separate or like the Lynx part of the box, will interrogate, locate and provide traffic info for those aircraft.....

I entirely concur. 

Now, sure, it depends where you fly, but even in the US the vast proportion of Mode C traffic will not have ADS-B for a long time. If you are within an ADS-R transmission, you will see them, but that is much less likely close to the ground around smaller uncontrolled airports, where the concern/risk is greatest.

Now, the cost delta for a new full TAS+ADS-B install these days is probably no longer cost effective in most of the US, but there is no question it is more effective in showing more of the traffic, and will be for the foreseeable future.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 07 Aug 2018 at 8:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2018 at 9:29am
I don't think you will see aircraft with a primary radar track only or aircraft with a transponder WITHOUT mode C through ADS-R.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2018 at 10:49am
Originally posted by Gring Gring wrote:

I don't think you will see aircraft with a primary radar track only or aircraft with a transponder WITHOUT mode C through ADS-R.

No, they will remain "invisible", except for the last 15 seconds or so, out the window.

At least the primary targets you can be warned about, by ATC.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stiletto1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2018 at 11:07am
Originally posted by Gring Gring wrote:

I don't think you will see aircraft with a primary radar track only or aircraft with a transponder WITHOUT mode C through ADS-R.


You won't. No matter what system you decide to spend money on you will never have a complete traffic avoidance system in your plane. The irony of it all is that these systems work best where there is radar coverage and ATC can provide you with traffic alerts already.

Though TAS/active traffic can pick up mode C equipped aircraft outside radar coverage where ADSB can't - IF the Mode C is on in the first place - TAS still can't see Mode A or non-transponder equipped aircraft - and these can be anywhere outside class C and B airspace below 10k'.

At uncontrolled airports you have position reports via radio and traffic pattern procedures to maintain separation.

BUT, If you are worried about colliding with the few Mode-C aircraft that may be lurking just above the weeds that radar and ADSB can't see, then by all means spend thousands more on an active traffic solution - just remember that this is where all the non-transponder equipped aircraft are as well that your TAS won't ever see either. Thus, the cost/benefit of TAS systems is not great IMO.









Edited by Stiletto1 - 07 Aug 2018 at 11:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Melohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2018 at 4:12pm
I had a Skywatch, and decided on a 345 for ADS-B In/Out. Interfacing the Skywatch to the 345 was straightforward, and provides the same TAS+TIS-B dual frequency capability as the Lynx 9000+ at significantly less expense. Right now, I’m seeing TAS on my EX5000, and merged TAS+TIS-B on my navigator. With MFD 8.2, I’ll have both on my MFD. Thanks Avidyne!

I believe Active traffic is important now, but after 2020 it will diminish in importance as most people will equip or won’t fly where I do. I believe a dual frequency ADS-B In solution is important, particularly where ADS-R is unavailable, which is a surprisingly large number of places. At some point when I’m no longer seeing TAS only targets, I’ll retire my Skywatch. I’ll never stop looking out the window; some traffic will never have transponders.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2018 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by Melohn Melohn wrote:

I had a Skywatch, and decided on a 345 for ADS-B In/Out. Interfacing the Skywatch to the 345 was straightforward, and provides the same TAS+TIS-B dual frequency capability as the Lynx 9000+ at significantly less expense. Right now, I’m seeing TAS on my EX5000, and merged TAS+TIS-B on my navigator. With MFD 8.2, I’ll have both on my MFD. Thanks Avidyne!

Interesting, but need a little more info to evaluate for general application.  

Is your Skywatch TAS output now routed to the 345 only, or does it connect to both the MFD and 345?

What's the model of navigator you have that displays your 345 output?


Edited by Catani - 07 Aug 2018 at 6:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stiletto1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2018 at 7:36am
Originally posted by Melohn Melohn wrote:

I believe Active traffic is important now, but after 2020 it will diminish in importance as most people will equip or won’t fly where I do. I believe a dual frequency ADS-B In solution is important, particularly where ADS-R is unavailable, which is a surprisingly large number of places. At some point when I’m no longer seeing TAS only targets, I’ll retire my Skywatch. I’ll never stop looking out the window; some traffic will never have transponders.


There may in fact be many more Mode C only aircraft congesting the airspace below 10k' after the mandate, but looking at the ADSB coverage map where TIS-B services are available - it looks as though coverage is near 100% in the US above 5000'agl - only sketchy in a few mountainous areas - is nearly that good down to 1500'agl as you get over the flatlands - and is available down to 500' in most low lying areas.

Add dual band ADSB-in and you will pick up any other ADSB out equipped aircraft in the sketchy TIS-B coverage areas. TAS might add a few more Mode-C only targets to your screen when operating in the weeds out in the boonies. Flight following can advise you of any traffic, including non-transponder equipped targets, within their radar coverage areas. Your eyeballs are going to have to find all the non-transponder equipped aircraft operating outside radar coverage areas that none of the above systems can see.

If I was installing a new ADSB system I would certainly not do less than dual band in from now on. Don't think I would spend a dime on active traffic unless I spent considerable time flying below 1500' outside radar coverage (or had some phobia about talking to ATC within radar coverage areas) and thought there were a lot of mode-c only aircraft also operating that low that I couldnt see out the window.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HenryM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2018 at 12:47pm
I have an IFD-540, AXP-430 for ADS-B Out and SkyTrax 100 for ADS-B In. I really want to move to a dual-band In solution. Would it be better to try to replace the SkyTrax 100, or rip out both the transponder and the SkyTrax and go for a Garmin GTX345 or Lynx 9000 (+?). 

Are you saying the extra cost of a Lynx 9000+ over a Lynx 9000 (adds active traffic) is not worth it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stiletto1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2018 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by HenryM HenryM wrote:

I have an IFD-540, AXP-430 for ADS-B Out and SkyTrax 100 for ADS-B In. I really want to move to a dual-band In solution. Would it be better to try to replace the SkyTrax 100, or rip out both the transponder and the SkyTrax and go for a Garmin GTX345 or Lynx 9000 (+?). 

Are you saying the extra cost of a Lynx 9000+ over a Lynx 9000 (adds active traffic) is not worth it?


I'd rip out the AXP and Skytrax and replace with either the GTX345 or the Lynx.

For my money, I'm not concerned about having active traffic along with dual band ADSB-in, Flight following, CTAF, and the eyeballs required to detect non-equipped aircraft that none of the electronic systems can see outside radar coverage anyway, but YMMV.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2018 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by HenryM HenryM wrote:

...
Are you saying the extra cost of a Lynx 9000+ over a Lynx 9000 (adds active traffic) is not worth it?

Active traffic will always add to traffic awareness. Price it out, and decide if it is worth it to you. That will depend on where you fly, and your typical mission, and your budget.

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HenryM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2018 at 9:06pm
The base NGT 9000 is $4999 on Special at Sarasota Avionics. There are two versions of the 9000+: with TCAS $7,849, with TAS Active Traffic $6,499. I don’t know what the difference is between TCAS and TAS Active Traffic. I’m interested in seeing as much traffic as possible when not in contact with an ADS-B ground station. To me that means receiving Mode C traffic in addition to UAT and 1090MHz signals, but I’m no expert. I sometimes fly near the DFW Class B airspace, but mostly I’m in central and southern Texas. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2018 at 9:20pm
TCAS includes Resolution Advisories, that is an airline thing and you can't get that on a small GA box. I suspect they are referring to their certified ATAS system, some extra programming that increases the assuredeness of traffic reports. The price delta looks about right.

The Lynx uses only a single directional antenna, so it won't work quite as well as a two antenna diversity system (like the Avi TAS60x), but the price is fabulous in comparison.

Among the options you are considering, if you want to maximize the traffic you see, go for the 9000+ with "TCAS".

* Orest


Edited by oskrypuch - 08 Aug 2018 at 9:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HenryM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2018 at 9:25pm
Thank you for the explanation!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stiletto1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2018 at 9:54pm
Originally posted by oskrypuch oskrypuch wrote:

The Lynx uses only a single directional antenna, so it won't work quite as well as a two antenna diversity system (like the Avi TAS60x), but the price is fabulous in comparison.* Orest


They offer a two antennae diversity model, The Lynx 9000D+

Henry, I fly all over Texas on a regular basis, including all around the south on business. Talk about a state with good radar coverage... Even way out west I've never had Flight Following lose me.

Houston Center can pick you up just east of Austin and keep you to LA or the Gulf Coast. Fort Worth Center has repeaters all the way to ABQ Center and north in to OK. KSAT has you covered to Corpus - from there to Valley International (Harlingen).

Unless you are picking prickly pears in Big Bend or flying through the valleys of the hill country I just can't see where you would be at a loss for radar coverage.   





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HenryM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2018 at 10:33pm
Radar should be picking up all the mode C traffic. Does it get sent out over ADS-R?

However, my issue is sometimes I don’t get ADS-R data to the plane. Last weekend, I flew up to Sherman IFR around the east side of the DFW Class B. Several times I had my portable and the SkyTrax 100 not receiving any towers. Since the SkyTrax is UAT only, it wasn’t getting much traffic either. In those situations, it would have been nice to directly pick up Mode C transponders, though I don’t know how accurate the position estimated by the TCAS part of a Lynx 9000+ is. As long as it is good a mile or two out, I guess it would be helpful. Flying IFR, it wouldn’t matter that much, but there is quite a bit of traffic that would be good to know about when VFR. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2018 at 10:38pm
Originally posted by HenryM HenryM wrote:

Thank you for the explanation!

You're welcome. For the relatively small price delta, I'd certainly get it, the "+" with active traffic. When ADS-B is available, the range and azimuth precision improves, but that way you are guaranteed a traffic solution for ModeC and up traffic, all the time, everywhere.

But, then I have been flying with a TAS605 for a while, so I'm spoiled.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 08 Aug 2018 at 10:41pm
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I sure wish Avidyne would produce a decent dual band in solution to pair with the AXP and IFD.  Even if they just allowed a dual band in to display on the IFD without having to get a new transponder...  They talked a huge ADS-B game and have been a complete disappointment.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Melohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2018 at 1:24am
Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

Originally posted by Melohn Melohn wrote:

I had a Skywatch, and decided on a 345 for ADS-B In/Out. Interfacing the Skywatch to the 345 was straightforward, and provides the same TAS+TIS-B dual frequency capability as the Lynx 9000+ at significantly less expense. Right now, I’m seeing TAS on my EX5000, and merged TAS+TIS-B on my navigator. With MFD 8.2, I’ll have both on my MFD. Thanks Avidyne!

Interesting, but need a little more info to evaluate for general application.  

Is your Skywatch TAS output now routed to the 345 only, or does it connect to both the MFD and 345?

What's the model of navigator you have that displays your 345 output?

The TAS is currently connected to both the 345 and the MFD. With release 8.2, I’ll be able to connect the MFD to the 345, which should then display converged traffic (TAS+TIS-B+dual mode ADS-B direct reception). I’m currently seeing converged traffic on my iPad in ForeFlight, and on my 430W navigator. I’m likely to upgrade that navigator to an IFD or a GTN at some point, both of which should work.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stiletto1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2018 at 5:17am
Originally posted by HenryM HenryM wrote:

Radar should be picking up all the mode C traffic. Does it get sent out over ADS-R?

However, my issue is sometimes I don’t get ADS-R data to the plane. Last weekend, I flew up to Sherman IFR around the east side of the DFW Class B. Several times I had my portable and the SkyTrax 100 not receiving any towers. Since the SkyTrax is UAT only, it wasn’t getting much traffic either. In those situations, it would have been nice to directly pick up Mode C transponders, though I don’t know how accurate the position estimated by the TCAS part of a Lynx 9000+ is. As long as it is good a mile or two out, I guess it would be helpful. Flying IFR, it wouldn’t matter that much, but there is quite a bit of traffic that would be good to know about when VFR. 


My understanding is that you should be seeing any Mode A/C/S equipped targets via ADS-R. Are you sure your installation is totally compliant? That your not receiving any towers suggest an equipment problem.

Of course, when IFR there is probably not as much traffic and ATC provides separation.

You should also be able to use Flight Following when VFR from Fort Worth Center, which can tell you about any non-transponder equipped aircraft as well - a FREE service.


Edited by Stiletto1 - 09 Aug 2018 at 5:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stiletto1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2018 at 5:43am
Originally posted by brou0040 brou0040 wrote:

I sure wish Avidyne would produce a decent dual band in solution to pair with the AXP and IFD.  Even if they just allowed a dual band in to display on the IFD without having to get a new transponder...  They talked a huge ADS-B game and have been a complete disappointment.  


They need a competitor to the GTX 345R. Or, as you say, for those with an AXP already, an add on dual band in solution.

My preference was for a remotely mounted single box dual band solution since I had nothing already. The 345R with its' built in AHARS and optional internal WAAS GPS coupled via Bluetooth to an iPad running Fore Flight or Garmin Pilot can act as a complete backup GPS Navigator with backup attitude indicator - something the Lynx cannot do.

If Avidyne was smart, they would build a GTX345R like box with an option for active traffic. As it stands right now it looks as though they are content with interfacing to the panel mount Lynx or GTX or some other third party box.

Unfortunately the IFD can't remotely control the 345R.

That and seamless interconnectivity was all a big part of my system choices.




Edited by Stiletto1 - 09 Aug 2018 at 5:49am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2018 at 9:38am
FreeFlight does have dual band solutions. You may not get bundling price benefits on the unts, but I would think it should be a drop-in replacment, and work. Something to explore.

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HenryM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2018 at 11:12am
I have actually looked for the FreeFlight Dual Band RANGR RXD unit, but other than a mention in a FreeFlight brochure, nobody seems to carry it. I also wrote to FreeFlight Systems but haven't received any reply. The single-band RX is also pretty pricey. If you have to buy it plus a transponder, you might as well buy a GTX345.

My options seem to be: 
1 - wait for something like the FreeFlight RXD to be available to replace my SkyTrax 100, or
2 - replace both the SkyTrax and AXP-340 with something else

Hopefully there will be a cost effective dual-band solution. I would really prefer to keep the rest of the stack all Avidyne. It is getting hard to do, though.  


Edited by HenryM - 09 Aug 2018 at 11:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stiletto1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2018 at 12:25pm
Since you have a Skytrax, waiting for your option 1 to become available may be your best bet from a total installed cost perspective - otherwise you will likely have to start all over to go with an all in one panel mount GTX or Lynx.

You can likely get a GTX345 installed for around 6k or so. A Lynx will run considerably more if you add active traffic and antennae diversity.

Originally posted by HenryM HenryM wrote:

I have actually looked for the FreeFlight Dual Band RANGR RXD unit, but other than a mention in a FreeFlight brochure, nobody seems to carry it. I also wrote to FreeFlight Systems but haven't received any reply. The single-band RX is also pretty pricey. If you have to buy it plus a transponder, you might as well buy a GTX345.

My options seem to be: 
1 - wait for something like the FreeFlight RXD to be available to replace my SkyTrax 100, or
2 - replace both the SkyTrax and AXP-340 with something else

Hopefully there will be a cost effective dual-band solution. I would really prefer to keep the rest of the stack all Avidyne. It is getting hard to do, though.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2018 at 8:22pm
Originally posted by HenryM HenryM wrote:

I have actually looked for the FreeFlight Dual Band RANGR RXD unit, but other than a mention in a FreeFlight brochure, nobody seems to carry it.

Exactly, I'll call them in the morning, but it doesn't seem to be an actual product.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2018 at 1:33pm
Originally posted by Melohn Melohn wrote:

Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

Originally posted by Melohn Melohn wrote:

I had a Skywatch, and decided on a 345 for ADS-B In/Out. Interfacing the Skywatch to the 345 was straightforward, and provides the same TAS+TIS-B dual frequency capability as the Lynx 9000+ at significantly less expense. Right now, I’m seeing TAS on my EX5000, and merged TAS+TIS-B on my navigator. With MFD 8.2, I’ll have both on my MFD. Thanks Avidyne!

Interesting, but need a little more info to evaluate for general application.  

Is your Skywatch TAS output now routed to the 345 only, or does it connect to both the MFD and 345?

What's the model of navigator you have that displays your 345 output?

The TAS is currently connected to both the 345 and the MFD. With release 8.2, I’ll be able to connect the MFD to the 345, which should then display converged traffic (TAS+TIS-B+dual mode ADS-B direct reception). I’m currently seeing converged traffic on my iPad in ForeFlight, and on my 430W navigator. I’m likely to upgrade that navigator to an IFD or a GTN at some point, both of which should work.

So you have Skywatch traffic on your MFD with 8.1, which we all know is a compatible combination.  But, do you know whether anyone has confirmed that the 345 traffic output will be compatible with the MFD with 8.2? I ask, because once you connect the 345 to the MFD, the Skywatch connection will have to come off.  You can't have both at the same time feeding the MFD. 

Also, do you whether anyone has confirmed the 345 traffic output would be compatible with an IFD?  (No question it would be if you put in a 650 of course.)  It seems these Garmin-Avidyne compatibility assumptions at times have not worked out despite promises.  Just wondering if there is any real-world confirmation of the compatibility of these combinations. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2018 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by Stiletto1 Stiletto1 wrote:

...You can likely get a GTX345 installed for around 6k or so. A Lynx will run considerably more if you add active traffic and antennae diversity.
You don't need the Lynx's extra-cost diversity option with a small GA aircraft.  One antenna works fine.  As it does for the 345 as well, I assume.  

The 345 of course lacks a display screen, so they are not strictly speaking equivalent products.  On the Lynx, the screen permits it to display traffic (at shorter display range) and weather while your other display(s) is set to something else (longer range, for instance).  If it's within the budget, the Lynx screen is worth the extra cost and provides redundancy as well.
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