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steve.crimm@stephens View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote steve.crimm@stephens Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Seattle Avionics & Avidyne
    Posted: 19 Apr 2021 at 12:48pm
Just returned from Sun N Fun and had a brief conversation with Seattle Avionics. 
Went to their booth to tell them they needed to start doing Nav Data for the Avidyne IFD 440 that I have.

Here's what they said...take it for what it's worth...

We are working on, and probably 10 months away from having nav-data available for the Avidyne products to replace Jepp and for $99.00 a year.

I said great, but I'm not holding my breath.

That is straight from the horses mouth, so now we wait and see.

Can Avidyne comment on this possibility?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2021 at 9:23pm
There are a lot of hoops we would have to go through in order to use a different nav data supplier.  It's unlikely that we will do that.  
Steve Lindsley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LANCE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2021 at 10:14pm
Thank you Steve!  Updating the Seattle Avionics data on my Aspens takes hours. My Jepp data on my IFD550 takes seconds. My time is easily worth paying $299 for Nav Data from Jepp.

Edited by LANCE - 11 Jun 2021 at 9:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skitheo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2021 at 11:23pm
Originally posted by LANCE LANCE wrote:

Thank you Steve!  Updating the Seattle Avionics data on my Aspens takes hours. My Jepp data on my IFD500 takes seconds. My time is easily worth pay $299 for Nav Data from Jepp.


Those are two very different sets of data. What takes you so long with the Aspen data update from Seattle Avionics is that you are updating over 20,000 NACO charts as individual PNG lossless compressed raster image files, totalling over 4 GB of data. That's writing a new FAT32 table entry on your SD card for every one of those 20,000 images. I'm sure that there was a speed/fidelity/format design trade-off years ago when avionics hardware was more limited. Another trade-off which could be made is to only install the NACO charts for the states/regions you will use, rather than the entire United States. This is what most EFB apps do for NACO charts/procedures.

NavData from Seattle Avionics would be vector data and would not take a significantly different amount of time to update your IFD than it presently does with Jeppesen NavData.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cruiser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2021 at 12:51pm
that is an apples to oranges comparison.
data sets are not the same. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LANCE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2021 at 10:45am
Originally posted by Cruiser Cruiser wrote:

that is an apples to oranges comparison.
data sets are not the same. 

If you'd like apples to apples, when I still had a charts database with Jepp for the Avidyne it took maybe 90 seconds. Charts for the Aspen on Seattle Avionics takes overnight. If I could get charts from Jepp for the Aspens at three times the price I would gladly pay it.

The big question is why would Avidyne allocate any resources to switching data providers when it wouldn't net them one dime? They already have a reliable data provider that everyone who purchased an IFD was aware of at the time of purchase. This is a moot subject. Avidyne has worked, at no advantage to themselves, to get the pricing lowered for us. Could we possibly just let this subject rest and let Avidyne work on things that would allow them more profits for greater sales and us more features? GI275 compatibility, VNAV step down capability, etc, etc. 


Edited by LANCE - 21 Apr 2021 at 10:47am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PA23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2021 at 11:07am
Other than supplying the data format requirements to Seattle Avionics I don't know why Avidyne would care who provides the database, unless there are some other deals going on in the background that we are not privy to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cruiser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2021 at 3:08pm
It take about an hour to update the Aspen dataset from Seattle Avionics. 
as mentioned above Seattle Avionics provides the georeferenced approach plate images, you are not getting those from Jeppesen charts or navdata. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2021 at 4:09pm
Not being familiar with the Aspen or Dynon units; does Seattle Avionics supply actual nav data for those units or do they only supply ChartData (i.e. georeferenced approach charts, airport diagrams, VFR sectionals, IFR low charts, & IFR high charts)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2021 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by LANCE LANCE wrote:

Originally posted by Cruiser Cruiser wrote:

that is an apples to oranges comparison.
data sets are not the same. 

If you'd like apples to apples, when I still had a charts database with Jepp for the Avidyne it took maybe 90 seconds. Charts for the Aspen on Seattle Avionics takes overnight. If I could get charts from Jepp for the Aspens at three times the price I would gladly pay it.

The big question is why would Avidyne allocate any resources to switching data providers when it wouldn't net them one dime? They already have a reliable data provider that everyone who purchased an IFD was aware of at the time of purchase. This is a moot subject. Avidyne has worked, at no advantage to themselves, to get the pricing lowered for us. Could we possibly just let this subject rest and let Avidyne work on things that would allow them more profits for greater sales and us more features? GI275 compatibility, VNAV step down capability, etc, etc. 

+1 .... incl getting 10.3 out the door with RF approaches. 
Vince
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skitheo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2021 at 11:13pm
Originally posted by dmtidler dmtidler wrote:

Not being familiar with the Aspen or Dynon units; does Seattle Avionics supply actual nav data for those units or do they only supply ChartData (i.e. georeferenced approach charts, airport diagrams, VFR sectionals, IFR low charts, & IFR high charts)?


What Seattle Avionics provides for the Aspen Evolution Flight Displays (EFD) is only applicable to the MFD and is a digitized (raster) version of the entire FAA Terminal Procedures Publication https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/productcatalog/ifrcharts/TerminalProcedures/

NavData, obstacle, terrain and cultural database data come from Jeppesen presently as vector data which is rendered by the EFD for display. This includes the same low & high altitude enroute data displayed by the Avidyne IFDs.

Hope this helps.

Reference: 150hrs flying with Aspen 2000 MAX + IFD540 (>400hrs) in my airplane. 

EDIT: if you want to view an FAA sectional, TAC, or Lo/Hi Enroute chart, you'll have to display it on your EFB.
See https://aspenavionics.com/support/database for more info about data used by the Aspen EFDs.
See https://www.dynoncertified.com/charts-airport-diagrams.php for info about data used by Dynon displays. Nav Database is supplied by Dynon, possibly repackaging NACO, Seattle or Jeppesen data.


Edited by skitheo - 22 Apr 2021 at 11:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote nrproces Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2021 at 10:13am
I am all "IN" for this and have been, every time I write another check to Jepp...They are horrible to deal with, and SA, is a dream...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2021 at 10:17am
Originally posted by chflyer chflyer wrote:

Originally posted by LANCE LANCE wrote:

Originally posted by Cruiser Cruiser wrote:

that is an apples to oranges comparison.
data sets are not the same. 

If you'd like apples to apples, when I still had a charts database with Jepp for the Avidyne it took maybe 90 seconds. Charts for the Aspen on Seattle Avionics takes overnight. If I could get charts from Jepp for the Aspens at three times the price I would gladly pay it.

The big question is why would Avidyne allocate any resources to switching data providers when it wouldn't net them one dime? They already have a reliable data provider that everyone who purchased an IFD was aware of at the time of purchase. This is a moot subject. Avidyne has worked, at no advantage to themselves, to get the pricing lowered for us. Could we possibly just let this subject rest and let Avidyne work on things that would allow them more profits for greater sales and us more features? GI275 compatibility, VNAV step down capability, etc, etc. 

+1 .... incl getting 10.3 out the door with RF approaches. 
+1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2021 at 9:56am
Mr Crimm, it sounds to me like your taking to a salesman and not an engineer.  In order for a database to legally be loaded into your IFD you need a letter of authorization (LOA) and I believe the TSO for the product has to include that LOA.   The certification work (cost) is substantial for both the data provider and the OEM.

Here is the FAA AC, you may want to pass this along to Seattle avionics.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-153B.pdf

 I hate Jepp as much as anyone but Unfortunately, I'm afraid this is who we are stuck with.....


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steve.crimm@stephens Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 7:50am
Unknown the position of the primary person in the booth I was talking to, but both (only) individuals in the booth were in agreement. 

Like I said in my original post..."Take it for what it's worth" and "I'm not holding my breath".

Only time will tell.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paulr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 10:51am
See the source image
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnAJohnson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2021 at 9:10pm
Originally posted by LANCE LANCE wrote:

[QUOTE=Cruiser]...switching data providers when it wouldn't net them one dime?...


A selling point for the Dynon Skyview HDX vs a Garmin G3X is SA data at $99/year.

If Avidyne were to do this, there is no doubt they would sell more boxes because of the cheaper data costs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2021 at 11:44pm
If you fly approaches with Dynon, you’ll need an IFR navigator.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skitheo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2021 at 12:38am
Originally posted by JohnAJohnson JohnAJohnson wrote:

Originally posted by LANCE LANCE wrote:

[QUOTE=Cruiser]...switching data providers when it wouldn't net them one dime?...


A selling point for the Dynon Skyview HDX vs a Garmin G3X is SA data at $99/year.

If Avidyne were to do this, there is no doubt they would sell more boxes because of the cheaper data costs.

Is that a valid comparison for navigators / FMSs? Is Dynon SV HDX using NAVDATA or charts? I.e., do they have coded instrument procedures including waypoints, holds, altitude and speed restrictions, coded into the database for flight plan retrieval?

To my knowledge, Thales Group, Rockwell Collins, Lufthansa Systems, GE(?) and Jeppesen are the only certified providers of navdata.  It would be great if Seattle Avionics is getting their own Type 2 LoA. I'm not holding my breath.
AC 20-153B is the current FAA guidance for NavData authorization. The Dynon website implies that they may be getting some data (obstacles? Navdata?) from Jeppesen and packaging it for SV HDX.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnAJohnson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2021 at 7:03am
Originally posted by MarkZ MarkZ wrote:

If you fly approaches with Dynon, you’ll need an IFR navigator.


That's true no matter who makes the PFD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnAJohnson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2021 at 7:12am
Quote Is that a valid comparison for navigators / FMSs? Is Dynon SV HDX using NAVDATA or charts? I.e., do they have coded instrument procedures including waypoints, holds, altitude and speed restrictions, coded into the database for flight plan retrieval?


The type of data used by the HDX isn't important to this discussion - it's a PFD.  The topic is that SA is developing an alternate to Jepp for Avidyne IFDs, selling for $99, and if that were to happen, I believe it would give Avidyne a serious competitive advantage.

I only brought up Dynon to illustrate how $99 SA data (vs. many hundreds for the Garmin G3X) is a selling point for the HDX system, as a comment on Lance's "switching data providers when it wouldn't net them one dime" statement.


Edited by JohnAJohnson - 13 Jun 2021 at 5:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HenryM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2021 at 8:02pm
Originally posted by JohnAJohnson JohnAJohnson wrote:



A selling point for the Dynon Skyview HDX vs a Garmin G3X is SA data at $99/year.

If Avidyne were to do this, there is no doubt they would sell more boxes because of the cheaper data costs.

To shoot an IFR approach with a Dynon HDX, you have to have a separate navigator, like an Avidyne or Garmin unit, with its own separate navdata, as others have mentioned. 

The SA data displayed by the HDX is not what drives an approach. You still need to pay for the Jeppesen or Garmin NavData used in the certified IFR navigator, on top of the $99 to SA. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LANCE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2021 at 8:39pm
Originally posted by JohnAJohnson JohnAJohnson wrote:

Quote Is that a valid comparison for navigators / FMSs? Is Dynon SV HDX using NAVDATA or charts? I.e., do they have coded instrument procedures including waypoints, holds, altitude and speed restrictions, coded into the database for flight plan retrieval?


The type of data used by the HDX isn't important to this discussion - it's a PFD.  The topic is that SA is developing an alternate to Jepp for Avidyne IFDs, selling for $99, and if that were to happen, I believe it would give Avidyne a serious competitive advantage.

I only brought up Dynon to illustrate how $99 SA data (vs. many hundreds for the Garmin G3X) is a selling point for the HDX system, as a comment on Lance's "switching data providers when it wouldn't net them one dime" statement.

The price of the nav data does not drive sales for Avidyne or Garmin, it's the features of the navigator that does. If it's $99 vs. $299 in the grand scheme of owning an airplane it's pennies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnAJohnson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2021 at 9:17pm
Originally posted by LANCE LANCE wrote:

The price of the nav data does not drive sales for Avidyne or Garmin, it's the features of the navigator that does. If it's $99 vs. $299 in the grand scheme of owning an airplane it's pennies.


Apples to apples, I think it would make a difference to some.  But That's just an assumption.

But I think your statement above may be an assumption too.  As far as I know, there has never been a big difference in database cost across brands of navigators, so how would we know if it would be a discriminator?  If SA is successful it will establish a new paradigm.

The only navigator example I know of was the handheld Lowrance Airmap 2000C and its sales, while short lived, were cutting into Garmin's.   They actively hawked that their database updates were lots cheaper than their competition's.  Not quite apples to apples, since the Lowrance had a much bigger, bright color screen and a few other features that the Garmin's didn't have, but a data-point none the less.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skitheo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2021 at 11:36pm
For reference, when I started buying NavData for my IFD just over 5 years ago, I paid almost $500 for just the western half of the US. Now I get all of the US for just under $300. I far the prefer the Avidyne UX.

We've all been hoping that Jeppesen would get some NavData competition in the GA space for a long time. If SA can pull it off, great. They'll have to also do a lot of the LoA work. I already have a SA lifetime subscription to charts for my Aspen 2000 MAX.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote rpostmo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2021 at 4:59pm
I have to say that I've been quite pleased with Jepp now that I get my
annual NavData subscription for $299 per year for my IFD540.   I don't
get the charts as I much prefer looking at them on my tablet with IFLY GPS.
program.
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