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Programming alternate missed

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rolfe_tessem View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rolfe_tessem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Programming alternate missed
    Posted: 08 Dec 2018 at 8:40pm
So, one of my local airports, Albany, NY has had their standard missed approaches for the ILS 1 and ILS 19 NOTAMed out for some time due to the CAM VOR being out of service.

The NOTAM provides alternate missed approaches for both runways.

In the case of ILS 01, it is "Climb to 2000, then climbing left turn to 4000 on ALB VORTAC R-299 to MARIA/ALB 19 DME and hold"

In the case of ILS 19, it is "Climb to 2000, then climbing right turn to 6000 on heading 2000 and ALB VORTAC R-194 to GROUP/ALB VORTAC 11 DME and hold".

I have tried with the simulator and have been unsuccessful with getting either of these programmed. Is it possible to delete the miss in the database? Apparently not.

Even adding it at the end of the flight plan, I can't make it work. I have not tried it in the airplane...

Any suggestions here?

Rolfe

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 6:24pm
The FMS loads missed approaches as part of loading an approach, since the database contains only one missed approach for each approach.
Steve Lindsley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rolfe_tessem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 8:14pm
Steve, I get that...

So, how do I program the alternate missed that I outlined above? I get that I can't delete the canned one.

I would have thought that I would add MARIA to the end of the flight plan, figure the reciprocal of the radial from ALB and add that to the MARIA waypoint via the OBS. The simulator would not let me do that.

Rolfe

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 8:53pm
OBS is a tactical function.  There's not a corresponding kind of leg that you can add to the flight plan (outside of an approach).

The best way for you to enter the alternate missed for ILS 01 is to put the cursor after the missed approach, add waypoints ALB and MARIA, then hold at MARIA.  When you go missed, start the climbing left turn, then activate the leg to MARIA (using L1 "Activate Leg").  Similarly for 19, add ALB, GROUP, then hold at GROUP.

Steve Lindsley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rolfe_tessem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 9:32pm
"OBS is a tactical function"

Hmmm, might be nice to put something about that in the manual.

So, if the alternate miss in question hadn't had a named intersection, but instead just a DME/19 on the ALB R-299 radial, how would one program that? A user waypoint?

Rolfe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 6:18am
Rolfe,

In that situation, you could program a user waypoint, however, that would best be done during the enroute phase of flight, and not while on the approach - a workload issue.  If you found yourself on the approach with those instructions, you can OBS the ALB VOR and use a datablock to find 19 DME.  You can always switch to VLOC mode and use the green/white radial/bearing indicator to set the 299 radial and use a datablock or a tual DME (if equipped) to find 19 DME.

I think we sometimes forget basic navigation skills and rely on the GPS too much. 


Edited by Gring - 11 Dec 2018 at 6:19am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 10:09am
Originally posted by rolfe_tessem rolfe_tessem wrote:

So, if the alternate miss in question hadn't had a named intersection, but instead just a DME/19 on the ALB R-299 radial, how would one program that? A user waypoint?
Yes, you could define a user waypoint using Radial/Distance format.


Edited by AviSteve - 11 Dec 2018 at 10:10am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MysticCobra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 10:11am
Originally posted by Gring Gring wrote:

I think we sometimes forget basic navigation skills and rely on the GPS too much. 
When you have a $15,000 FMS, coupled to GPSS and an autopilot, and it handles >95% of your flying situations smoothly and completely, it's easy to develop an expectation that the system can handle those last few corner cases smoothly and completely, too.

Unfortunately, there are some situations that require a big more "fiddling" to handle, as this example illustrates.

Understanding where those corner-case limitations are is important, but it can be hard to develop that understanding without running into those corner cases, which sometimes comes as a rude surprise.

I'm not sure that's a manifestation of "forgetting basic navigation skills".  I think it's more a case of recognizing the limitations of the $15,000 FMS, where reverting to the 50-year-old tech and "basic navigation skills" may be a better option.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rolfe_tessem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 11:30am
Well, this is one reason I left a traditional NAVCOM with it's own CDI in my plane alongside the 540. Sometimes, in situations like this, it is just easier to twist a knob to the correct radial and fly the raw data.

Rolfe

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FlyingCOham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 11:30pm
We kept an old KNS80 NAV system (enroute & approach VOR, DME, enroute & approach Rho-Theta RNAV) when we upgraded to Avidyne.  Great backup and very useful in situations like this.  "DME/19 on the ALB R-299 radial" is a breeze.  Set 111.2 (ALB's freq), set 299, set 19, spin the OBS to 299, set the A/P to the KNS80 & watch.
Jim Patton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2019 at 4:55pm

I’ve always been a strong believer in not trying to program everything into the IFD, especially in high workload or congested airspace.  Sometimes the best course of action is to resort to raw data.  However, I don’t consider these situations to necessarily indicate a limitation of the IFD.  What I see are “corner cases” of rare clearances that cause “programming confusion”, especially if it requires rarely used IFD features. 

For example, this thread began due to the alternate missed approach clearance: “intercept the ALB VORTAC R-299 to MARIA/ALB 19 DME and hold as published."  If the clearance had been instead: “intercept the leg between ALB and MARIA to MARIA and hold as published”, I suggest that the thread never would have been started.  We are all familiar with programming course legs.  But in the world of GPS, we rarely get “intercept radial”.  The confusion is in translating from radial programming to leg programming.  Once that translation is clarified, it becomes no different than programming any revised course clearance. 

Originally posted by FlyingCOham FlyingCOham wrote:

We kept an old KNS80 NAV system (enroute & approach VOR, DME, enroute & approach Rho-Theta RNAV) when we upgraded to Avidyne.  Great backup and very useful in situations like this.  "DME/19 on the ALB R-299 radial" is a breeze.  Set 111.2 (ALB's freq), set 299, set 19, spin the OBS to 299, set the A/P to the KNS80 & watch. 
That entails a lot of button pushing.  I suggest that it is a breeze because you’ve been flying behind it long enough that it is now part of your flying DNA.  Programming the IFD can also become part of our flying DNA and, in this situation, I think it is both simple and better.  Program the WPT at ALB-R299/19DME, create the ALB to WPT leg, & then the hold at WPT.  Also, consider that the KNS80 is subject to VOR service volume, solution geometry, line of sight, signal accuracy, etc., none of which affect the IFD.  The IFD waypoint can also be integrated into your overall flightplan.  So, if you need to program in a waypoint, I think you’re better off programming the IFD.

So, I don’t see a limitation of the IFD in these examples.  What I see are “corner cases” of rare clearances that cause “programming confusion”, especially if it requires rarely used IFD features.  Reverting to raw data in these situations is absolutely the right thing to do.  It’s what I do when I encounter a situation that isn’t immediately clear about how to program the IFD.  The value of this forum is that we can discuss and learn about how to eliminate our limitations before we encounter them in the aircraft.  I can also practice them on the simulator so that they will eventually become a part of my flying DNA and minimize my having to revert to raw data.



Edited by Bob H - 12 Jan 2019 at 5:02pm
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