New MLB100 978 MHz ADS-B In Receiver
Printed From: Avidyne
Category: Avidyne General
Forum Name: SkyTrax Series ADS-B Receivers & Transceivers
Forum Description: Topics on the Avidyne SkyTrax 978 MHz Receivers & Transceivers
URL: http://forums.avidyne.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=426
Printed Date: 27 Apr 2024 at 12:31pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: New MLB100 978 MHz ADS-B In Receiver
Posted By: AviJake
Subject: New MLB100 978 MHz ADS-B In Receiver
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2014 at 7:28pm
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Today Avidyne announced another part of the ADS-B product line. See this link for an overview: http://www.avidyne.com/products/mlb100/index.asp" rel="nofollow - http://www.avidyne.com/products/mlb100/index.asp Let the questions begin..... ------------- Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com |
Replies:
Posted By: FORANE
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2014 at 7:38pm
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How much? Just in, not out? Is out coming in another version? ------------- Lancair 235/320 RV-9A |
Posted By: AviJake
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2014 at 7:49pm
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$2495. Just "In". "Out" is via the AXP340 Mode S Transponder. The TAS6XXA is also a ADS-B "In" product that exists too. ------------- Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com |
Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2014 at 8:06pm
Well, not to be picky, but the -A is NOT available yet. I have the 605 and await the -A, maybe next Spring? My question is: 1) Timeline on the MLB100? 2) How is the overlap between a TAS605 system upgraded to -A, when it becomes available, reconcile the two sources of traffic data? * Orest
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The TAS6XXA is also a ADS-B "In" product that exists too.Posted By: AviJake
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2014 at 8:11pm
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1. Plan on late winter/early spring 2015. 2. We're working through those details. I suspect most folks who want the MLB100 will use it for the ADS-B weather and to a lesser extent, the traffic. We're working through the user interface of the traffic source indication including if it even matters. Fun internal debate. TAS-A should be in the spring too.
------------- Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com |
Posted By: MysticCobra
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2014 at 10:51pm
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ADSB-in weather receivers are a dime a dozen. Plenty of inexpensive, highly-functional devices out there to do that today. Hard to justify paying $3K to have it on my 540 instead of $500-$1000 to have it on my Nexus 7 or iPad. Traffic is the differentiator. An elegant and affordable solution for ADSB-out (to trigger the traffic broadcast from the FAA, and of course meet the 2020 mandate) plus a well-integrated ADSB-in receiver that can feed Wx and traffic to _all_ their displays--panel-mounted and portable alike--is what GA pilots are looking for. From my perspective, Avidyne hasn't figured that out yet. The AXP340+TAS6XXA/MLB100 isn't it: Bugsmashers don't need 1090ES, they're better suited to 978-out where they can form their own mesh network in the lower altitudes if there's no ADSB tower around. They don't need to mesh-network with the flight level traffic. And the TAS box is just too darned expensive for the typical bugsmasher owner. The MLB100 doesn't give me anything a far less-expensive solution--one that I already have, BTW--doesn't already provide. Color me disappointed.
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Posted By: FORANE
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 5:59am
I wasn't going to say it, but now that it has been said... I too already have ads-b in, and yes it was relatively cheap. This, exactly: An elegant and affordable solution for ADSB-out (to trigger the traffic broadcast from the FAA) plus a well-integrated ADSB-in receiver that can feed Wx and traffic to _all_ their displays--panel-mounted and portable alike--is what GA pilots are looking for. ------------- Lancair 235/320 RV-9A |
Posted By: tony
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 7:18am
| If ADSB-in was integrated into a transponder, that would be a differentiator in the marketplace. If I was in the market for a transponder that would probably sway my decision. Short of that, Ill just keep it on my IPAD. |
Posted By: AviJake
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 8:35am
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Oh, on the contrary, I would say we totally get it and have figured it out. Along those lines, this MLB100 product is not the only one we'll create to provide a broad set of options/solutions for the market. We would certainly agree that some of the architectures/combos you guys suggest are a very good set for a large part of the market. This current set of options/solutions does work quite well for number of folks and for those for whom it doesn't, we will eventually have some more available options/solutions to consider. ------------- Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com |
Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 11:28am
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I have been looking for a way to put weather on the 540 screen, well first I need to get a 540, but I digress ... There is a satellite downlink solution available currently, but the cost is $5000+ installed, and then there is the $1000/year subscription, and it won't populate my ASPEN. A certificated ADS-B in, for me, might be just about perfect. Especially given its lower install & $0 subscription cost, and the chance that it might feed the ASPEN. It is only a part solution, as it is US only and then with the limitations of ADS-B coverage, but I spend a lot of time in the US, and most of the time I'm in the near border regions where ADS-B weather will still populate. Traffic doesn't matter to me as I have an active traffic solution. I have a tablet in the cockpit, but seldom use it except maybe to pull up charts, it is a backup. On a longer trip I may pull it out and play with it. For me, everything is on the panel. I recognize I may be perhaps a minority. In any case, I look forward to seeing other solutions as well. The MLB100 alone will not supplant a more "portables" focused cockpit, which is likely the majority, unless you can feed that data out by wifi/bluehost. Hmm. * Orest |
Posted By: ddgates
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 11:33am
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I would take a slightly different tack. The TXP gets you ADS-B out whether or not you choose to use a portable/iPad for ADS-B in (display). I like what I am doing with thee TXP and the TAS device - at least around a high density traffic area (PHX class Bravo) - got it covered. The TAS (someday) will integrate active transponder trafffic with ADS-B traffic (again, someday..) Then add the receive only box (and as stated there are bunches out there) - voila! My total cost for ADS-B in/out (sans install, which is also trivial) is going to be ~ 3.2K. Completely functional, and fully 2020 compliant. ------------- David Gates |
Posted By: SB Jim
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 1:09pm
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Very interesting. Jake, do you know if the unit (or the 540) will provide an audio "traffic" alert? I like to fly with my eyes outside the cockpit and ideally a traffic system would give me an audio alert that I'd missed something. A quick glance at the display to find out where the traffic is then eyes back outside to identify the target. That's the thought... Regards, Jim
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Posted By: MikeK
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2014 at 7:14pm
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Let's say hypothetically that I have an Aspen Evolution system, an Aspen datalink receiver, an AXP-340, an IFD-540, and a TAS-605A with your eventual upgrade to support ADS-B In. I'm trying to figure out if this new MLB100 adds any functionality. It seems that it would provide TIS-B, but I should be able to get that via the TAS-605A. It will provide FIS-B, but I should get equivalent data from the Aspen receiver (which can be displayed on the 540, right?). The Aspen has a subscription cost, but it works on the ground, which is not guaranteed with FIS-B, and the weather products are not geographically limited in the same way as FIS-B. If I'm reading it correctly, the MLB-100 is not a full UAT, it is just a receiver on the UAT band, correct? That means that the only thing I should get that is not provided by my existing equipment would be the air-to-air reports from other aircraft that have a UAT rather than 1090-ES output. And those aircraft should show up either via ADS-R through the TAS-605A, or via the TAS-605's interrogation of their Mode C transponder, although the latter would not have the precise data available with ADS-B. I guess you might eventually allow relay of some of the FIS-B data through the 540's wireless radios to portables like an iPad, but that's not announced yet. I don't know if the same thing would be possible with the datalink stuff coming from the Aspen receiver. They don't seem to support it via Connected Panel, but I don't know if that's a licensing issue from the data provider, or just their own lack of development of that product. Have I got that more or less correct?
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Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2014 at 8:38pm
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At present there is no interoperability with ASPEN weather and the IFD540, I investigated that. That may change. There is a solution for downlink weather to the 540, but that won't propagate to the ASPEN. Mike - in your setup (very similar to mine), the MLB100 will give you FIS-B on the 540, and that's about it. It may however propagate back to the ASPEN, but that is unknown at the moment. However, that is a relatively cheap way to get some level of weather on the 540, and the 540 does a dazzling job of displaying and using weather data. * Orest |
Posted By: AviJake
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2014 at 10:26pm
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Yah, Mike and Orest have it correct. ------------- Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com |
Posted By: MikeK
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2014 at 3:29am
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I do hope that support for Heads Up and Aspen weather makes it into a later release. (I understand that Heads Up built the Aspen box, so it should be possible to share some of the work between the two.) I can display the weather on the Aspen MFD of course, but I would like the flexibility of having it on the 540's screen if desired. Thanks for the confirmation, Steve! Complicated stuff to understand with all the different ADS-B frequencies out there...
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Posted By: ddgates
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2014 at 11:07am
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Ditto that. By Heads Up, do you mean Navworx? Or Freeflight? Don't know and can't find a Heads Up company. I would suggest that since Avidyne sort of herded us in the Aspen direction (DFC90), and even though that dating relationship may have cooled <heard anything about Connected Panel within last 2 years?> Avidyne would be wise to try to interoperate with Aspen equipment. I am prewired for Aspen's dual frequency display box <they say Q1 2015>, and as mentioned above I would like for it to be able to display ADS-B Wx on both the Aspen MFD and the dual 540s I now have.
------------- David Gates |
Posted By: Gring
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2014 at 7:15am
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Heads Up Technologies: http://www.heads-up.com |
Posted By: sikhpilotmd
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2014 at 4:08pm
| Any further updates on this? Availability? Features? |
Posted By: jblodgett
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2014 at 7:33pm
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Are there plans to offer a dual frequency (978/1090) receiver in the future? Thanks, Jim |
Posted By: AviJake
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2014 at 7:58am
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We're timing the release to come out with the accompanying IFD540/440 Software Release 10.1 which includes support for it. That is looking like the March timeframe. The EX500/600/5000 will also support it. Other products are in the pipeline too (like dual band devices) but are further out, schedule-wise. ------------- Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com |
Posted By: Gring
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2014 at 8:21am
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I did not see a form for the older weather products like the MLB700, so, I'll ask it here. The following was in AvWeb this morning regarding the new iPad weather box from SiruisXM "The SXAR1 won't receive the WxWorx XM Weather data that is provided by Baron Services. It is unknown how long older broadcast receivers—including the first generation Garmin GXM-series receivers that interface with older Garmin portable GPS systems—will continue to work. As we go to press, Garmin announced the GDL69 SXM receiver, the next-generation unit that will receive the new weather packages. " This seems to indicate movement on the new weather protocol discussed at Oshkosh several years ago. I'm still in the camp that I'd rather pay for a more reliable weather service than ADS-B, and am wondering if notice has been given that the older products will be sunset? And If Avidyne is planning on developing a product based around the new protocol and available with SiriusXM music? |
Posted By: Gary T
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2014 at 10:11am
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Gring, During one of my past job assignments ( 9 yrs ago) I was deeply involved with Sirius and XM tuner design (for cars). I still have and operate both legacy portable receivers. Since millions of Sirius and XM car receivers (and portable) are still in use/functioning creating income for the new SiriusXM merged company, I strongly believe they will continue to transmit legacy (compatible) signals to support these old units, as long as enough income is received. Same applies to the thousands of XM aviation weather receivers. Old portable XM aviation receivers can be upgraded with new receiver software ( had to do this several years ago-mandatory to continue to receive). I am not familiar with software upgrades for certified old XM aviation installed receivers, I would think it is possible. However parts to repair the old units (greater than 10 yrs old) will likely become a problem, causing companies like Garmin to no longer provide repair support in the future. Since Avidyne provides interface support for the "old" Garmin GDL69/69A units, I would think they will also provide support for the expanded feature new GDL69SXM ( in time). It is easier for Avidyne to interface a new Garmin SXM weather receiver than design from scratch/certify a unique Avidyne SXM receiver (my opinion). ------------- Gary-T |
Posted By: 888dom
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2014 at 7:22pm
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As much as I hate to put my eggs in one basket - I understand the market capture protocol as well. This being said, I was an early prepurchaser of the IFD540 and have just ordered the AXP 340 to replace my KT76A. (Hopefully it ships ASAP!) I'm interested in the ADS-B WX and Traffic IN on my 540. I, like many others, fly with an IPad. They are awesome. BUT, in order to get ADS-B wx in on the iPad, requires spending an additional $1k (or so), plus having another box to charge, maintain, etc. Cords in the cockpit anyone? No thanks. My question is - for those of us who have given you our first born's inheritance, are you anticipating any deals on the MLB100? I purchased the 540 to be on the brink of technology at a discounted price and will strongly consider the MLB100 if you have a similar offering. Also, I'd really like to see the certification path for installation to go like this: 1) The MLB100 uses the IFD 540 as a position source, negating the need for an additional antenna. 2) The MLB100 uses the AXP340 and the existing transponder antenna for all things ADS-B related, also negating the need for an additional antenna. 3) There will be no additional need for an airspeed switch or air/ground mode device. 4) The MLB100 will send ADS-B traffic and weather to an iPad via the wifi/Bluetooth within the IFD540 (or an internal transmitter). 5) This data sent out via wifi/Bluetooth will work with ForeFlight. 6) The MLB 100 will eventually also send/receive WX, TIS-A/B traffic to the Aspen PFD. 7) The pricing should be somewhere in the $1500 (or less) range. As this solution is only ADS-B "IN", and you must pay for installation as well, you must keep it competitive with the portables. Are they worth $800-1000? Maybe if it is going to cost $3500 for a certified unit with the exact same functionality. An AXP-340 meets the FAA mandate. The MLB is just 'fluff' and nice to have, though I'd buy one in a heartbeat for the right price. I can buy a Freeflight Ranger 978 today for $3995, it outputs to the iPad, they are working with Aspen, Foreflight, and it would even put traffic on the 530/540. They claim they are working with you for ADS-B weather too (which you may not do since you are working on your own box). However, if you compare apples to apples - $3995 gets you ADS-B in and out, with several display options in one box without a new transponder. The AXP340 - $3995 + MLB100 $2500 makes your equivalent solution $6500. Enter smart minded consumers and free market capitalism. I suspect that this means you should rethink your strategy. |
Posted By: pburger
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2014 at 12:38pm
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Steve, I've drunk the Kool-Aid, and would like to put my name on the list for the MLB100. Is there any way to do a pre-order? Maybe a deposit for a delivery slot? In other words, I'm calling SHOTGUN! |
Posted By: AviJake
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2014 at 3:39pm
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Luckily the front seat is a wide bench-like seat that should accommodate everybody who has called shotgun so far. I've forwarded the question on pre-buy or queue assignment since I don't know the answer. We are timing the shipments of the MLB100 to be aligned with IFD540 Release 10.1 in the early spring. ------------- Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com |
Posted By: AzAv8r
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2015 at 11:10pm
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The MLB100 + AXP340 is NOT a solution. Since the 340 is 1090 out, the FAA assumes you have 1090 in and doesn't rebroadcast other 1090 traffic. Without 1090-in you are blind to 1090 traffic unless there happens to be a UAT -out equipped aircraft in your immediate vicinity AND you are in TIS-B coverage. No thanks. The only meaningful solution for the majority of aircraft is dual-band in. Almost trivial design delta from a UAT-only receiver, and the only way to have protection in non-radar or non TIS-B airspace. I'll stick with a portable until a real solution becomes available. |
Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2015 at 11:27pm
That is the first I've heard of such a suggestion, I don't believe you have that right. Ground station ADS-B rebroadcasts blend all data sources of traffic, including 1090, UAT & conventional secondary radar, they do not delete certain elements based on where they were sourced. Further, all ADS-B OUT devices also transmit what ADS-B IN capability is on board. I would expect that that is what drives what frequency ADS-B rebroadcast is sent on. * Orest |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 8:39am
This contradicts everything I have read or heard about how ADS-B operates. Although some experts have contradicted others this doesn't match any of them. Could you tell me where it comes from? |
Posted By: jrm356
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 9:56am
The AXP340 has a configuration entry to indicate what type of ADS-B In service you have installed. It is possible this is ignored. But from Trig's site: "It is worth pointing out that in the US the FAA infrastructure will rebroadcast information between 1090 ES and UAT systems so that the traffic information is available identically on either data link. With the weather data available on UAT, the UAT data link therefore contains all the information you might need. There is no requirement for your ADS-B In receiver to use the same technology as your ADS-B Out system, and in the US there is therefore a good argument for using a 1090 ES ADS-B Out solution together with UAT for ADS-B In." http://www.trig-avionics.com/adsb.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.trig-avionics.com/adsb.html
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Posted By: scastelino
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 12:41pm
| So I'm a bit confused - if I have the MLB100 and an existing TAS system (I have a skywatch). What will I get on my MFD? Date from both? just one? |
Posted By: Gary T
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 8:54pm
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I am not familiar with the skywatch TAS unit, however Sagetech (Clarity ADSB website) states: • ADS-R (Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Rebroadcast) is a simple repeater. Messages received on 1090 MHz are re-broadcast on 978 MHz, and messages received on 978 MHz are re-broadcast on 1090 MHz. This makes a data-connection between the two ADS-B channels. Again, the ADS-B Out limitation applies equally here. Only aircraft with the right kind of ADS-B Out equipment willreceive traffic targets over ADS-R. If my airplane has ADS-B Out, will I receive TIS-B/ADS-R Traffic near my aircraft? A: Maybe. If ALL of the following are true, you’ll get TIS-B/ADS-R Traffic: - Your ADS-B transmitter has to comply with the most recent version of ADS-B out (currently version 3). Note that the present version of the Garmin 330 is not of the latest standard, so it is our understanding that users of Garmin 330ES with ADS-B Out will NOT receive TIS-B/ADS-R - Your transmitter must also have the appropriate configuration to indicate receive capability on either 1090 MHz, 978 MHz, or both. Then you‘ll receive TIS-B on the indicated receive channel. If your equipment states receive capability on both 978 MHz and 1090 MHz, you’ll receive TIS-B on only 978 MHz. You’ll also receive ADS-R on the indicated receive channel. Clarity receives on both 978 MHz and 1090 MHz. ------------- Gary-T |
Posted By: AzAv8r
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 9:12pm
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I would be thrilled to learn that my assertion is incorrect, but I have been collecting (and reading) all ADS-B technical documents I could get my hands on for several years. Right up until the final TSO versions, it was pretty easy to find them online via Google at FAA and ICAO websites. Everything in those documents indicates that rebroadcast is cross-band only. Nothing I have found indicates that the FAA will retransmit in the same band, which would be necessary for a UAT-In to provide traffic information in conjunction with UAT out. The description in the current AIM (sec 4-5-10) clearly states "translation". Given that the RTCA, ICAO, and FAA documents all agree that there is no in-band retransmission, and that there are technical (spectrum) reasons to not do so, I am highly skeptical that the FAA intends to support that. The message definitions for UAT-out would in fact allow in-band retransmission, because the UAT reports the specific ADS-B In band that is installed in the aircraft. But I find no such message in the 1090ES documents I have. It might be there, but if so I missed it. I'll note the Trig statement is ambiguous, and can be interpreted either as "in-band retransmission" or "translation". But the former definition directly conflicts with FAA, RTCA, and ICAO statements, and the latter conflicts with the message they are trying to convey. Hopefully someone will prove me wrong. Note that it "can work" is not the same as "it will work", because the FAA has to be committed to continuing any in-band retransmission they might currently be doing. |
Posted By: AzAv8r
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 9:17pm
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Oops, in the second paragraph that should be "...would be necessary for a UAT-In to provide traffic information in conjunction with 1090ES-OUT." Here's the AIM section: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim0405.html |
Posted By: MysticCobra
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 9:38pm
Note that you can use the "Post Options" button (for a limited time after posting) to Edit your message, rather than posting a separate reply with a correction.
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Posted By: AzAv8r
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 9:45pm
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(Thanks for the point-out on the edit.) Here are some more authoritative (and fairly recent) sources on the translation vs. in-band rebroadcast aspect of ADS-R: http://www.avidyne.com/landing/ads-bee/what-is-ads-b.asp#adsr" rel="nofollow - http://www.avidyne.com/landing/ads-bee/what-is-ads-b.asp#adsr http://www.faa.gov/nextgen/library/media/getSmart_ADSB.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.faa.gov/nextgen/library/media/getSmart_ADSB.pdf http://www.exelisinc.com/solutions/ADS-B/Pages/ADS-B-Features-and-Capabilities.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.exelisinc.com/solutions/ADS-B/Pages/ADS-B-Features-and-Capabilities.aspx http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2013_ADS_B_SITF12/IP07%20-%20USA%20AI.6%20-%20FAA%20ADS-B%20Activity.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2013_ADS_B_SITF12/IP07%20-%20USA%20AI.6%20-%20FAA%20ADS-B%20Activity.pdf
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Posted By: AzAv8r
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2015 at 9:59pm
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One other point, (almost) independent of the ADS-R band issue, is that a dual-band receiver provides traffic outside of the ground ADS station service volume, something valuable in mountainous areas at lower elevations. After 2020 (assuming the mandate holds), you'll have all traffic, anywhere in the US (well, excepting traffic operated by scofflaws.) |
Posted By: jrm356
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2015 at 1:00am
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Aircraft under 18,000' outside a mode C veil won't be required to have ADS-B Out, dual band will not see them. Back to ADS-R From AC 20-165A 11/07/12 3-2 ADS-B Equipment b(2) "(2) Mixed transmit/receive classifications. TSO-C166b and TSO-C154c allow Class
A transmit-only and Class A receive-only equipment configurations. There are no restrictions
for installing a certain class of receive equipment with a different class of transmit equipment.
For example, a Class A3 transmit-only unit can be used in the same aircraft with a Class A1
receive-only unit. It is also acceptable to have a TSO-C166b transmitter and a TSO-C154c
receiver and vice versa." TSO-C166b is 1090, TSO-C154c is 978 and section 4, talking about multiple ADS-B Out systems "Note: 2: Installation of dual 1090ES and UAT ADS-B IN capability is acceptable and
encouraged."
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2020-165A.pdf |
Posted By: Gary T
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2015 at 9:47am
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From the Garmin ADS-B Academy website: The FAA wants to encourage GA pilots whose aircraft typically operate below 18,000 ft to opt for 978 UAT, and thus help minimize congestion on the 1090 MHz frequency. The thinking is that a variety of free added-value features will further incentivize GA owners to adopt some form of 978 UAT for their ADS-B solution. It should also be pointed out that since the FAA’s infrastructure will rebroadcast information between 1090 ES and 978 UAT systems, it’s also possible for users to install a mixed ADS-B solution — for example, one using an ES transponder for ADS-B “Out” and a 978 UAT datalink receiver for ADS-B “In”. A variety of intriguing combinations can be considered. ------------- Gary-T |
Posted By: Joe Jet
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2015 at 12:48am
| Steve. is Avidyne going to make a transponder similar to the L-3 9000, but without the waas receiver. There seems to be quite a few ADS-B in/out solutions coming to market so I'm a bit hesitant to install the AXP340/MLB100 combo. |
Posted By: AviJake
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2015 at 9:50am
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There are a host of configurations and options that will come from us as we get closer to the mandate but as for your specific example, I'm pretty sure the price of the L-3 unit is meaningfully more expensive than the combined AXP340/MLB100. ------------- Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com |
Posted By: ddgates
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2015 at 9:58am
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For those of us who have AXP340s, and who will have the ADS-B upgrade to our TAS units, all we are going to need is a FIS-B receiver. Any plans to help us out? ------------- David Gates |
Posted By: jblodgett
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2015 at 11:45am
Steve, Do you have an update on the certification of the MLB100 and the software release 10.1 for the IFD-540? Thanks, Jim |
Posted By: AviJake
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2015 at 11:47am
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MLB100 cert should be late April/early May. Release 10.1.0.0 cert should be late April - we're driving to a Sun-n-Fun cert. ------------- Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com |
Posted By: rolfe_tessem
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2015 at 4:10pm
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Any pre-order deal available? :-) Rolfe |
Posted By: SB Jim
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2015 at 5:31pm
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Jake, I've got the IFD 540 and AXP 340 installed and playing nicely. Will the MLB 100 do the following: 1. Provide an aural traffic alert (e.g., "Traffic, 3 o'clock, high")? 2. Provide ADS-B In traffic display on the 540? 3. Provide FIS-B weather to the 540? If so, I'm very interested. If it just goes to an iPad app I've already got all that for quite a bit less $$ with the GDL 39. Regards, Jim |
Posted By: n7ifr
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2015 at 6:35pm
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Jim, Congrats on the 540/340. Glad to see you have moved from the 480 world - I am making the same move in 2-weeks and had been so reluctant at first to give up the great 480. Only a few small functions I will miss on the 480, but so much more on the 540 - I described the 540 to Keith Thomassen as a 480 on steroids! Good luck. Tom W.
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Posted By: AviJake
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2015 at 7:20pm
1. Yes, that's the plan. 2. Yes, BUT......the FAA did not like our implementation of the traffic icons so we had to pull that part out of Release 10.1.0.0. We will be adding it pronto after 10.1 and the 440 are released. 3. Yes, that's included in Release 10.1.0.0. ------------- Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com |
Posted By: ddgates
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2015 at 7:30pm
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Why wouldn't the same icons as depicting TAS traffic be acceptable. "..the plan" tells me callouts are not going to be a part of the MLB release package V1.0. ------------- David Gates |
Posted By: AviJake
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2015 at 7:34pm
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ADS-B guidance calls for directional indication for ADS-B traffic. That is not the case for TAS traffic icons. Since we don't have that, then we are not permitted to display ADS-B traffic in Release 10.1.0.0 - this was the source of great confusion and conflicting guidance, neither of which were straightened out prior to going into software test-for-credit and documentation submission. And since we don't display ADS-B traffic, there is no aural alerting. Both will come in a follow-on release to 10.1.0.0. ------------- Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com |
Posted By: ddgates
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2015 at 7:39pm
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Got it. I don't envy you what you are doing, particularly WRT the Feds. ------------- David Gates |
Posted By: AviJake
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2015 at 7:43pm
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I fly with them for what they expect to be their final flight test of this and the rest of 10.1.0.0 on Wed afternoon (tomorrow). ------------- Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com |
Posted By: Gring
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2015 at 7:55pm
| Excellent! |
Posted By: 888dom
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2015 at 8:53am
| Do you anticipate having the Wifi unlocked with version 10.1? If so, have you also been able to secure an agreement with a vendor (hopefully Foreflight) that will allow us to show the traffic on our iPads until you're able to demonstrate what the FAA requires to get it on the 540? |
Posted By: Gary T
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2015 at 9:01am
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In a different thread discussion AviSimpson said bluetooth activation would be enabled ( version 10.1) first and wifi released in a later version. ------------- Gary-T |
Posted By: AviJake
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2015 at 9:10am
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Not exactly. All the code required for Bluetooth and WiFi operations are in Release10.1.0.0. But, the FAA has added additional cert requirements on the STC side of that. So, until the extra STC work is done on that (post Rel 10.1.0.0 STC), we have set an internal bit in a manner that disables the Bluetooth and WiFi functionality. Once that extra STC work is done, a software utility will be released (at no $ charge) that you can squirt into the USB port that will take about 4 seconds. As for the WiFi apps, the vendors all still want to keep mum until you can actually download them from the app stores. So for now, we stay tight-lipped. ------------- Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com |
Posted By: 888dom
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2015 at 9:13am
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I did read that post Gary, thank you. I'm a little bummed that Avidyne somehow 'missed' the part where the FAA required directional icons for ADS-B traffic display. It seems like there must be published guidance of the rules to work from somewhere - the 'G' company must have read that line. I understand leaving things out for the speed of certification and I give Avidyne credit that since the release of the 540 they have been working feverishly to improve it. The speed to market problem still haunts them though and will for years to come. Are there any teasers about the wifi/bluetooth iPad connection that you guys can share? I see this as likely the best feature of the 540. I've resisted buying a Stratus for 3 years hoping for a certified solution and on-screen display. I suppose another few months won't hurt me either but it's very disappointing that I'll still be waiting on ADS-B traffic on my 540 if I do purchase an MLB 100.
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Posted By: AviJake
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2015 at 9:16am
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To be clear, we did not miss that guidance. There is a clause that permits exactly what we did but an internal argument with the cert authority overroad and the subsequent course reversal came too late in this project. ------------- Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com |
Posted By: ddgates
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2015 at 9:39am
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Understandably, those who have bought these boxes want all the functionality and gee-whiz factor obtainable. I think Avidyne is trying to deliver this as expeditiously as they can, given that they carry a 100-stone (FAA) weight on their back, and are probably limited in coding staff. It is in Avidyne's best interest competitively to bring innovation to the marketplace as quickly as possible, and it is pretty obvious to me that Avidyne is trying to deliver on that. It has been a long slog, though, in the Avionics marketplace in general with all the "coming soon..." announcements that has become the modus operandi for this market segment. I understand it - jockeying for market share must be the driver. Thanks, Steve. ------------- David Gates |
Posted By: SB Jim
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2015 at 9:42am
Thanks, Jake. Sounds good to me. I am very interested in your product to make sure the integration works well. Plus I can let my bank account recuperate a bit. Separately, would there be any benefit to having this particular box be a dual band receiver? (1090 and 978) I suppose it could pick up some traffic when outside the ADS-B broadcast area. I have noticed that my current setup doesn't pick up targets until I'm up in the air a bit (above pattern altitude). Regards, Jim |
Posted By: SB Jim
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2015 at 9:57am
Hi Tom, I didn't give up my CNX 80 (aka GNS 480). It simply became GPS/Nav/Com #2 and my '76 vintage Collins Nav/Com, ADF and 90's vintage KN 64 DME were removed. I agree that the 540 is like a 480 on steroids, we are very pleased with it so far. |
Posted By: ddgates
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2015 at 9:57am
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Jim: Just my opinion - I think the best solution is a traffic system like the TAS605A which will have 1090 in. Then all you need is 978 in to catch FIS-B and the TIS rebroadcast. If you don't have 1090 traffic then I think the dual frequency box is the best solution. Best. David ------------- David Gates |
Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2015 at 10:56am
Agreed, that is what I did, but that is pricey. And actually, the TAS605A will pick up the TIS-R (978, 1090 & Mode C traffic) on 1090. You only need to add 978 if you don't have satellite weather and want FIS-B weather. * Orest |
Posted By: SB Jim
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2015 at 11:31am
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Agreed, active traffic is the best, but I'd rather save that money. Still, it won't catch them all either. Plenty of airplanes still flying without an electrical system or a transponder. Regards, Jim |
Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2015 at 12:02pm
Yes, we have to hunt them down. ;-) The Pattern at small uncontrolled fields on a blue sky day can be scary. * Orest |
Posted By: comancheguytoo
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2015 at 10:28pm
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Hi Jake, just received my 540 & 340 yesterday and am awaiting the MLB, but Az does raise one interesting point about supporting 978 only. Maybe you could clarify. With 1090 out only(AXP340) and 978 in only(MLB100), it seems like Avidyne guys could be in a scenario where they can't see one another(less TAS of course), when guys with cheaper systems could see us and themselves. i.e. If two of us with 540/340/MLB are flying outside the UAT envelope(Owens Valley, CA for instance), we'd both be transmitting out 1090, and both waiting to hear on 978, and we might see the Cub below us with a Freeflight transponder, but we'd be running in stealth mode for each other. Does that sound right? |
Posted By: n7ifr
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 12:21am
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I believe your AXP340 1090 OUT will trigger ground station FIS-R which will then send a signal on BOTH 1090 and 978. So, in fact the MLB100 Traffic IN on 978 will be seeing traffic from both sources, and is only needed if you do not otherwise already have 1090 IN (like on TAS-"A", if it ever is available). Tom W.
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Posted By: SB Jim
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 12:55am
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Comancheguy, It sure sounds right to me. There are many places where we will be outside the "service volume area" or whatever they're calling it. I saw it on my recent trip to Tucson. In my Garmin Pilot app I was receiving "air to air" but I was not receiving anything from a ground based station. I was in radar contact with ATC on a discrete squawk code at that time. I was in cruise flight at 11,500' MSL. A dual band receiver would gets you air to air inbound from either 978 or 1090 Out in addition to ground based transmissions from either. Regards, Jim |
Posted By: AviJake
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 6:54am
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Tom W's post above is correct. ------------- Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com |
Posted By: MysticCobra
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 11:47am
So is Comancheguy's scenario, which posited that a ground TIS-B transmitter was not in range, so only air-to-air is available.
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Posted By: brou0040
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 12:03pm
We seem to get left out on the west coast being thought of as the few exceptions that may not be in range of a ground station. It's the same when people assume you'll be in radar contact, not so much out here. The places I can't get flight following are the places I'd like traffic in the cockpit the most.
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Posted By: AviJake
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 12:05pm
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Yes, agreed. A lot of folks like to take the multiple lines of defense approach: 1. Keep your eyes outside looking for traffic (unless IMC). 2. Use flight following services from ATC. 3. Install an active traffic system. 4. Install an ADS-B system and get repeated data when in service volume areas There are other techniques as espoused by people on this forum and they're all good. ------------- Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com |
Posted By: flybikeski
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 12:06pm
So let me get this right. Air-to-air is not available with the single-band MLB100 - you have to be in range of a ground station. Being out of range of a ground station is quite common in the west. I was on a Flying Sams trip to Mexico with a group of six planes. A few of them could see each other which seems quite useful. With the MLB100 I would not be able to see any of them, correct? I was getting excited about the MLB but now it sounds like it doesn't quite do it for me. |
Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 5:54pm
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Well, there is the MLB-2xx coming out. It is dual band. * Orest |
Posted By: comancheguytoo
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 6:04pm
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Thanks for replies. I think the answer would be air to air will work with the MLB-100 only if your bogey is 978 out. Air to air will not work between two or more equally axp-340/mlb-100 equipped aircraft because they would transmit and receive on different frequencies. Examples of other brands: Freeflight guys (978 out and in) can see each other L3 Lynx guys (both out and in) see each other, and see everyone else Garmin guys (1090 out and both in) see each other, and see everyone else, but we don't see them I guess the point I was making was that Avidyne guys not seeing each other air to air seemed inconsistent, and I thought I might be missing something.
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Posted By: n7ifr
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 7:06pm
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There are only two frequencies: 978 & 1090. For air-to-air, and no ground TIS-R repeaters, to receive both, you need ability to receive both (IN) frequencies... Hence, the Avidyne combo TAS xxxA (with 1090 IN) and MLB100 (with 978 IN) will pick up both air-to-air, and when within a ground station range (FIS-R), your AXP340 1090 Out triggers both from the ground station, so you receive both as well. When out in the boonies (no FIS-R), with Air-to-air, the TAS "A" receives 1090 IN and MLB100 receives 978 IN, but someone else out there will only receive your 1090 OUT (AXP340) unless they also have Dual IN receive capability. Tom W.
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Posted By: MysticCobra
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 9:54pm
There are a lot of Avidyne customers who have no intention of spending the big $$$ to get a TASxxxA system. Folks are trying to figure out what makes sense to satisfy the 2020 mandate and get the best bang-for-the-buck TIS-B out of that. Had Avidyne had the option for a UAT-out, I would have far preferred that to the AXP340 1090ES-out that I ended up choosing. I think a lot of us low-and-slow folks think it's foolish to have a 1090ES-out transponder, but if you need one today and don't want to go Garmin...you don't have much choice.
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Posted By: MikeK
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2015 at 11:45pm
Tom, With the TAS-6xxA and the MLB-100, you could theoretically have the 1090 and 978 ADS-B IN bands *and* TAS for traffic that doesn't have ADS-B OUT yet. However, as I understand it, Avidyne currently has no way to combine the TAS unit and the MLB into a single, integrated traffic picture. You could connect the TAS unit to one display and the MLB to another, but that would (IMO) be really confusing. The L3 and Garmin products claim to provide dual-band ADS-B and TAS all integrated into a single traffic picture that incorporates data from all three sources.
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Posted By: n7ifr
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2015 at 1:22am
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...as I understand it, Avidyne currently has no way to combine the TAS unit and the MLB into a single, integrated traffic picture. You could connect the TAS unit to one display and the MLB to another, but that would (IMO) be really confusing. The L3 and Garmin products claim to provide dual-band ADS-B and TAS all integrated into a single traffic picture that incorporates data from all three sources.
[/QUOTE]
My last rumor control indicated that the TAS6XX"A" will synchronize both interrogated X'ponder traffic with 1090 IN ADS-B and display both on the 540... I would only "assume" with the MLB100, the added 980 IN would also be synchronized to block duplicate bogies. Maybe a comment from the Avidyne staff?? Tom W.
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Posted By: flybikeski
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2015 at 1:23am
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Is there a dual-band MLB2xx in the works? Because right now a dual-band Stratus or a dual-band iLevil and an iPad outperforms a 540 and an MLB100. Not to mention price. I really want traffic up on the panel, but (at least for my flying in the west) it needs to capture all traffic, not just when near a ground station. I do acknowledge certified equipment lags portables so I understand why Avidyne doesn't have it, but I hope they can show a reasonably affordable path with planned equipment or support of other equipment. |
Posted By: flybikeski
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2015 at 1:43am
I reread this thread and see that Steve J. did say they are planning dual-band as we get closer to the mandate. I guess I need to be patient.... |
Posted By: SB Jim
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2015 at 10:44am
There is no device made that captures all the traffic. |
Posted By: brou0040
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2015 at 12:04pm
I'm not sure what the development timeline is for Avidyne's ADS-B equipment is, but I'd suggest that a dual-band IN solution be up next after the MLB100 and before the MLX200 or MLX210. They've been driving people towards the AXP340 out solution so those who went that route have no benefit from a MXL200 or MLX210 over an "MLB200" and will be stuck waiting again if they are looking for a dual band IN solution.
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Posted By: flybikeski
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2015 at 3:39pm
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Was not looking for one of those. However seeing more is better than seeing less. (For me and my flying profile. A MLB100 looks great for many folks). |
Posted By: Gary T
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2015 at 4:35pm
Interesting Aspen Avionics website statement:ARX200Dual-Band In ADS-B Receiver Certified ADS-B receiver for aircraft with a Mode S with Extended Squitter (ES) transponder and WAAS GPS installed. Transponder: Existing Mode S + ES GPS: Existing WAAS GPS Garmin GNS 430W, 530W, Free Flight 1201 Availability: Q3 2015 ------------- Gary-T |
Posted By: ddgates
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2015 at 4:38pm
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The ARX200 is the successor to the ARX100 - the 100 was supposed to have been available this past summer....but, wait, it isn't. Nor is the ARX200. The ARX200 doesn't appear to accept the 540 as position source, not does it appear to accept the newest generation Garmin boxes. And the hook is, if/when it comes out - it will display on the Aspen but not on the Avidyne. The same is true - the MLBXXX will display on the Avidyne, but not the Aspen. They were supposed to be working together, following Capstone.
------------- David Gates |
Posted By: MikeK
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2015 at 4:51pm
I believe they have already stated (can't recall where at the moment) that it does not do this. You can have TAS-605A traffic (with 1090-IN and TAS) or you can have MLB-100 traffic (978-IN), but you cannot merge and reconcile the two. If you have a TAS-605A and you want to use the MLB-100 for FIS-B, you can, but you have to disable the TIS-B or send it to a different display.
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Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2015 at 9:13pm
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The Aspen units are rebadged Freeflight units. They will be sold at a bit of a premium, but will not require an unlock code. Freeflight's units apparently will work too, but Aspen will charge an unlock code to let them work. * Orest |
Posted By: AviSimpson
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 10:14am
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Sorry for the delay in getting a response to this thread... Right now, if you're looking for "dual band" traffic your best bet is the TAS6xxA and either the MLB100 or MLX series. The TAS-A will incorporate ADS-B traffic, when available, with the active traffic returns. It will also give you a more tailored protection zone around the aircraft and not just the "hockey puck". We've heard the request for dual band systems from a few different places. Just out of my curiosity, what are you trying to gain from a dual band system that a TAS system wouldn't provide? ------------- Simpson Bennett Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
Posted By: ddgates
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 10:46am
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Simpson: Not to split hairs, but if you do that TASxxxA and the MLB100, you will also need ADS-B out, e.g. the AXP 340. ------------- David Gates |
Posted By: flybikeski
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 10:48am
Affordability. I just plain can't afford TAS and I'm sure other pilots are in the same place. To say we should go out and get your TAS product is a little like telling a group of homeless people that the solution to their problem is that they should buy homes. Easier said than done. |
Posted By: AviSimpson
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 10:55am
David, You're absolutely correct. I went off of the presumption that ADS-B OUT was already being solved.
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Posted By: oskrypuch
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 10:56am
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I have TAS and love it, and it does fill in all the gaps. BUT it is quite expensive. Although I fly a lot in the US, being based in Canada it made sense for me, we'll never have TIS-B here. Simpson, what I think folks are asking for is to bridge the gap between 978 and 1090, when a ground ADS-R ground station is not in range. * Orest |
Posted By: jblodgett
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 11:30am
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"what are you trying to gain from a dual band system that a TAS system wouldn't provide?" We are trying to find a built-in solution that gives us air-to-air (broadcast) reception of all ADS-B signals without spending the minimum of around $15k it would take to do it with your TAS/MLB100 combination. Most of us are currently using Stratus or Garmin portable units with iPads and have that capability for well less than $2k. I know you have an interest in selling your TAS systems but it is just not realistic for you to expect people to follow that route. For that matter, I believe there really is no future for TAS systems. I would really like to see you come out with a dual frequency ADS-B receiver to interface to my IFD540/AXP340/EX600 avionics stack. Until you do, I will continue to rely on my Stratus/iPad combination. |
Posted By: AviSimpson
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 11:36am
Got it. I just wanted to know if it was an issue of feature sets or not. You're right a TAS isn't going to be for everyone and we know that. My point was that if you are going to be doing a lot of flying in an area that doesn't have nearby ground stations or has aircraft that don't need to participate in the ADS-B world, your best bet for supplementing your "see and avoid" is a TAS. Just a FYI, the MLX210 list price is $4,995 and the MLX200 list price is $3,495. ------------- Simpson Bennett Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
Posted By: AviSimpson
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 12:20pm
Unfortunately, we will never compete on a price level with a stratus/Foreflight configuration in a panel mount solution.
While you are right, that a dual band transceiver might solve some of these issues and possibly at a lower cost (L3 Lynx MSRP ranges from 10k to 15k and Aspen AXR200 $4-5k) than a TAS setup, it might not give you the full traffic picture. It's definitely something that I will bring up to the team as another line of the MLX series. Though it probably won't be at a Stratus/Foreflight price. ------------- Simpson Bennett Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |
Posted By: jblodgett
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 1:24pm
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Thank you for your response. I do not expect that any certified installed solution be similar in price point to the Stratus/iPad solution but it needs to be far less than your TAS/MLB solution. I believe there are vanishingly small advantages to the TAS approach that do not justify its cost. Not for me at any rate. Added comment: Your MLB100 costs $2495. That seems reasonable given all the ridiculous hoops the FAA makes you jump through. But why should a dual frequency version cost much more than that? |
Posted By: flybikeski
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 1:31pm
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AviSimpson, I don't think anyone on this forum expects Stratus pricing on certified equipment, so no worries there. I think it will be pretty clear in the market (FreeFlight, Aspen, etc.) what certified dual-band ADS-B receivers should be priced at. I think the point is your customers want one. Maybe more so than the MLX2xx products. But I'm just guessing at that... |
Posted By: ddgates
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 1:37pm
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I think he is right. What we would really like, though, is a device which talks across platforms, i.e., Avidyne MFD and Aspen MFD. Aspen and Avidyne collaborated on the driver software for the DFC-90, why not align so that each company's ADS-B box displays on the other company's MFD? Can it really be that hard?
------------- David Gates |
Posted By: AviSimpson
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2015 at 2:55pm
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I don't think what's being asked for is outrageous. I'll do some research our end so we can see what it would take to get it added to a platform like the MLB/MLX series. ------------- Simpson Bennett Avidyne Corporation Product Manager |