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How do YOU fly holds using your IFD?

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jimmyz80 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimmyz80 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How do YOU fly holds using your IFD?
    Posted: 11 Oct 2018 at 3:56pm
So I'm familiar with what you can and can't do with the published and unpublished holding features built into the IFD, but I'm curious to hear what the steps are that people take to actually fly these holds once their added to your flight plan.

The reason I ask is that I came from flying Garmin GTN equipped planes, and the GTN walks you through each turn pretty clearly, with a countdown prior to the turn, etc.  The IFD just gives you a mess of colored lines to decipher, and some cryptic messages that aren't immediately helpful without some thought ("exiting hold at fix" can be alarming to see right as you're entering a hold and expecting some guidance).  So as a thought exercise, I'm curious if anyone would be willing to post a step by step of how they enter and fly an FMS hold, specifically covering the following:

-How you plan your entry
-How you determine when to begin each turn
-What guidance you follow on the inbound leg
-What guidance you follow on the outbound leg
-What reference you use (datablock, external DME, etc.) for flying holds with distance legs instead of timed legs

I know how I fly the holds, but I'm curious to hear how others do it.  Thanks! :)
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jimmyz80 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimmyz80 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 12:05am
I guess everybody just kicks on GPSS and lets the DFC90 do the thinking? :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MysticCobra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 12:57am
I have only flown holds one three or four occasions, and haven't done it recently, so I can't sit here and tell you what I did.  But I don't recall thinking that it was confusing or unintuitive.

I have flown them by hand and with my GPSS single-axis autopilot engaged.  I didn't have trouble either way.


Edited by MysticCobra - 19 Oct 2018 at 12:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 7:40am
Real HOLDs are infrequent, but with the IFD and an A/P they are mundane. Not much to think about.

When I had my 430, years ago, it wasn't that much of an issue either. I would fly a heading to make good on the outbound, and just OBS in to the fix on the inbound.

If flown manually, for HOLD entries, I will use a parallel or direct only. That way you don't have to think about which way to turn passing the fix (parallel vice teardrop), it is either straight outbound on the radial, or you have just entered the HOLD already on the inbound.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 19 Oct 2018 at 7:43am
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MarkZ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 11:05am
One thing for sure; if you get great tailwinds you’re going to get to hold.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by MarkZ MarkZ wrote:

One thing for sure; if you get great tailwinds you’re going to get to hold.

LOL.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote forkauto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2018 at 3:33pm
If you are on a published hold, the IFD will tell you the type of entry, countdown to turns as well as heading to turn to in the lower right corner
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pburger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 11:12am
Holds may be rare, but HILPT's are part of many approaches.  We have a HILPT with a distance leg at my home airport.

The IFD is crap when it comes to holds with distance legs!  Here's why:

When flying a hold with a DME distance leg using a VOR and a DME, the DME always tells you the straight line distance from the station.  So, if you have a 4nm leg, you use that distance to know when to turn inbound.  Easy, peasy.

But with the IFD, it gives you the total distance ALONG THE COURSE to the fix.  So, just after you cross the fix inbound, it will give a distance of 11 nm or so for a 4 nm leg holding pattern (1.5 in the turn, 4 outbound, 1.5 in the turn, and 4 inbound).  So, I've got to do some mental arithmetic to realize that I need to turn inbound when it shows the distance is 5.5.  It's not intuitive at all!!  The only way to know when to turn is to look at the magenta line.  That's NOT HOW IT SHOULD BE in my opinion.  And dare I say it, that's not how Garmin does it.  The reality is that Garmin was pretty much the standard for years, and when selling a box that is supposed to be a plug-and-play for Garmin, you probably should keep some BASIC things the same.

Back when I had to hand fly holds, I had to use the magenta line to determine when to turn.  That drove me nuts.  I wanted to know how far I was from the fix, but that information is not available.  Well, I now have a TruTrak which has GPSS, so it's not so much of a big deal, but I still think it's crap!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 2:21pm

Now I know how Scotty felt defending the honor of the Enterprise after the Klingons compared it to a garbage scow…

The IFD operates differently than those other boxes - by design.  We believe that the IFD is better.  You've learned techniques that worked for you on the 430.  You need to learn different techniques when operating the IFD.

With respect to flying HILPT by the numbers using your IFD, you simply need to monitor the "To Waypoint Direct Info." datablock.  That will show you the bearing and distance to the active waypoint during the hold.  When you get to your desired distance, start your turn.  The illustration below shows the RNAV 4, JINSO transition, at KVRB.  The HILPT there has 4 mile legs.  The datablock is shown in the top of the right hand column.



Steve Lindsley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Froethel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 7:00pm
I'm in many ways still a newbie but I see this entry where the author say "  Countdown to turns"....


If you are on a published hold, the IFD will tell you the type of entry, countdown to turns as well as heading to turn to in the lower right corner

I've never seen this.  Is there a setting I'm missing??
Frank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 hours 8 minutes ago at 10:19pm
The countdown doesn't occur for holds.  We can consider modifying that in a future release.
Steve Lindsley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote forkauto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 hours 4 minutes ago at 8:23am
Steve, I posted the comment above. Since my 550 install, I haven't flown a ton of holds but at my home airport KDMW, I have done the GPS16 a few times and when flying the approach if I include the hold, it will give me the turn and countdown 5,4,3,2,1 etc in the bottom right corner. I really like this option. Since you say it doesn't include this in the software, I wonder if another install may be communicating with it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 hours 18 minutes ago at 10:09am
Originally posted by forkauto forkauto wrote:

Steve, I posted the comment above. Since my 550 install, I haven't flown a ton of holds but at my home airport KDMW, I have done the GPS16 a few times and when flying the approach if I include the hold, it will give me the turn and countdown 5,4,3,2,1 etc in the bottom right corner. I really like this option. Since you say it doesn't include this in the software, I wonder if another install may be communicating with it. 
When you say "bottom right corner", are you talking about the advisory bubble?  For that approach (HYPER transition) when you're approaching the hold, the advisory should say "Parallel Entry" and then when you're in the course reversal, it should say "Exiting At Hold Fix" until you reach UNYTS (the hold fix).  The alert returns when you're 10 seconds away from NISPL (FAF) and counts down to zero as you pass the waypoint.

Nothing else drives the alert message.  Next time you're up, give it a try again.  If it behaves differently than I explained above, I'd be really interested to see video.
Steve Lindsley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote forkauto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9 hours 48 minutes ago at 11:39am
Will do, I'll go back up this weekend and try her out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9 hours 31 minutes ago at 11:56am
Steve, it has been my experience that the hold and PT works as you describe. It's been that way since before certification as far as I can remember.

I think what people are saying is that the way Garmin treats the hold messaging and computations is easier to understand while you are in the hold. I think that may be true, especially if you came from Garmin. The additional datablock is useful for distance, but not exactly the same as what Garmin does (not saying that the IFD should be the same).
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