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To PT or not to PT.
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Speedbird1 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 31 Mar 2021 at 10:20pm
I wanted to ask a question which is more IFR regulation than IFD operation, yet still has IFD relevance.  

Looking at the picture below, if I were coming from the south (as per purple line), heading direct to HUGOD (per my clearance) and I was cleared for the RNAV 34 *legally* I'm expected to fly the hold, correct?  Of course, I would most likely, at this point, ask if I were 'cleared straight in'.  

I've notice on the chart that NoPT is required *only* if you are flying to HUGOD from either NOTAW or JOBED.  It seems that the IFD agrees with this as if you set the IAF as NOTAW or JOBED no hold is added but if you set up HUGOD as your IAF then a hold is added.  

Just wanted to confirm?

TIA!
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Ibraham View Drop Down
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Points: 357 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ibraham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2021 at 12:37am
The hold is for course reversal, since HUGOD is also an IAF, and if you are being vectored, the most direct course is to join the final approach course and not do the hold. As you said, it is better to confirm with ATC. When IFD adds the hold, you can delete it before you get to HUGOD. 
One time I was flying GPS 12 into KVRB and being vectored, the IFD/AP started to sequence me into the hold which was not what ATC expected, once I got to the IAF I could not delete the hold. I had to change AP to heading mode, to reenter the procedure with VTF and fly to the FAF. Since then, I try to  delete the hold if not expecting to fly it before getting to the IAF/IF otherwise it will not you delete it.
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Points: 724 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2021 at 6:47am
Here is where you encounter the nuances of flying IFR. Everything you have said is correct.  However, sometimes, often actually, ATC is sloppy with their instructions. Since you are more or less straight into the final approach course, it is obvious that a course reversal/procedure turn is not necessary, and often ATC will say “cleared for the approach” and expect you to not perform the PT.  However, that phraseology is not correct.  As you stated, you need to be cleared straight in for the approach to eliminate the PT.

You just have to be on your toes.  When I’m out practicing approaches, I’ll test this and if not cleared properly, will fly the PT.  It becomes a teaching moment for ATC.
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mfb View Drop Down
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No controller would expect you to do a procedure turn when you're intercepting the final approach course from such a shallow angle. There's seven miles between HUGOD and the next fix on the approach, so that's plenty of room to get established on the final approach course. The two other initial approach fixes (on 90 degree intercept angles) are clearly marked NoPT. And the AIM specifically says that you don't have to do a procedure turn when you're intercepting a final approach course at less than a 90 degree angle.

There's absolutely no reason to fly a procedure turn from the intercept angle that you are showing. And I would NEVER try to "test" ATC by doing an unexpected procedure turn. That's going to turn you right into the face of the traffic behind you, which will not make you popular with the controller. It's a good way to get a pilot deviation and I would not want to argue about controller phraseology. 

The correct thing to do would be to respond "cleared for the straight in approach" when you receive the approach clearance, or otherwise clarify with ATC. A little communication goes a long way.

As others have said, the IFD box will automatically load the PT when you load the approach. It's up to you to delete it from the flight plan. That's easy to do.

Always pay attention to what the box is doing now (magenta line on the screen) and what it's going to do next (barber pole line). The PT is clearly shown when it's part of the flight plan. Get rid of it if it's not what you want to do.
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Points: 293 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2021 at 11:32am
PS...

AIM 5-4-6.e.4 says "If proceeding to an IAF with a published course reversal (procedure turn or hold-in-lieu of PT pattern), except when cleared for a straight in approach by ATC, the pilot must execute the procedure turn/hold-in-lieu of PT, and complete the approach."

AIM 5-4-6.e.6 says "When clearing aircraft direct to the IF, ATC will radar monitor the aircraft until the IF and will advise the pilot to expect clearance direct to the IF at least 5 miles from the fix. ATC must issue a straight-in approach clearance when clearing an aircraft direct to an IAF/IF with a procedure turn or hold-in-lieu of a procedure turn, and ATC does not want the aircraft to execute the course reversal."

So you are correct about the ATC phraseology. But I would still clarify with ATC and never do a PT in a case like this  unless everyone was expecting it. Yes, ATC can get loose sometimes. Still, they make fewer mistakes than I do. And a few seconds of extra communications will save a lot of time at an FAA hearing if things go wrong.
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dmtidler View Drop Down
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Points: 616 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2021 at 1:35pm
Interesting discussion. The following is from AIM 5-4-5-d-4 (Instrument Approach Procedure (IAP) Charts - Terminal Arrival Area) and appears specific to IAPs with TAAs:

(a) ATC should not clear an aircraft to the left base leg or right base leg IAF within a TAA at an intercept angle exceeding 90 degrees. Pilots must not execute the HILPT course reversal when the sector or procedure segment is labeled “NoPT.”

(b) ATC may clear aircraft direct to the fix labeled IF/IAF if the course to the IF/IAF is within the straight-in sector labeled “NoPT” and the intercept angle does not exceed 90 degrees. Pilots are expected to proceed direct to the IF/IAF and accomplish a straight-in approach. Do not execute HILPT course reversal. Pilots are also expected to fly the straight-in approach when ATC provides radar vectors and monitoring to the IF/IAF and issues a “straight-in” approach clearance; otherwise, the pilot is expected to execute the HILPT course reversal.

With the TAA concept, it appears by definition that intercept IF/IAF intercept angles of less than or equal to 90 degrees will result in the aircraft being in a IAP published NoPT sector of the TAA and thus on a NoPT routing. This appears to satisfy condition five below from AIM 5-4-6-e (Approach Clearance). 

I believe that since this particular example IAP had an MSA; not TAA, the cited AIM references above do not apply. In this example, I think the controller technically needs to issue a "straight-in" approach clearance if no HILPT is expected and the aircraft is not following a published NoPT route per AIM 5-4-6-e (Approach Clearance) conditions four and/or six below. 

  1. 4. If proceeding to an IAF with a published course reversal (procedure turn or hold-in-lieu of PT pattern), except when cleared for a straight in approach by ATC, the pilot must execute the procedure turn/hold-in-lieu of PT, and complete the approach.
  2. 5. If cleared to an IAF/IF via a NoPT route, or no procedure turn/hold-in-lieu of PT is published, continue with the published approach.
  3. 6. In addition to the above, RNAV aircraft may be issued a clearance direct to the IAF/IF at intercept angles not greater than 90 degrees for both conventional and RNAV instrument approaches. Controllers may issue a heading or a course direct to a fix between the IF and FAF at intercept angles not greater than 30 degrees for both conventional and RNAV instrument approaches. In all cases, controllers will assign altitudes that ensure obstacle clearance and will permit a normal descent to the FAF. When clearing aircraft direct to the IF, ATC will radar monitor the aircraft until the IF and will advise the pilot to expect clearance direct to the IF at least 5 miles from the fix. ATC must issue a straight-in approach clearance when clearing an aircraft direct to an IAF/IF with a procedure turn or hold-in-lieu of a procedure turn, and ATC does not want the aircraft to execute the course reversal.
In all cases, as others have pointed out, if there is a question about the expectations of any received ATC clearance, promptly query the controller to resolve those questions.
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rolfe_tessem View Drop Down
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Points: 187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rolfe_tessem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2021 at 1:39pm
I suspect that if this procedure was newly charted today, it would be as a TAA which would show NoPT from whole quadrants or, depending on terrain, at least from blocks of headings. Bear in mind that there may be procedures such as this where you would need to lose altitude in the hold, although probably not in this case.

Rolfe
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Cruiser View Drop Down
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I have encountered both expectations from the controllers. The clear expectation from this discussion should be that BOTH sides of the team (pilot and controller) are on the same page understanding what is going to be done. 
With that in mind I have responded to the "cleared for the approach" with something like cleared straight in no PT. 


One other reason to use a PT or a hold is to loose altitude to be at a proper position to continue the approach from that point inbound. 
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Ibraham View Drop Down
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Points: 357 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ibraham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2021 at 10:57am
Another hint when ATC expect course reversal, they would instruct to Report the IAF/IF inbound.
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afassas View Drop Down
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Originally posted by rolfe_tessem rolfe_tessem wrote:

I suspect that if this procedure was newly charted today, it would be as a TAA which would show NoPT from whole quadrants or, depending on terrain, at least from blocks of headings. Bear in mind that there may be procedures such as this where you would need to lose altitude in the hold, although probably not in this case.

Rolfe

I believe Rolfe has the best read on this particular approach.

As previously stated, when in doubt, ask ATC.

In the reverse scenario, I had a straight in sector clearly marked “NoPT” direct to the IF/IAF.  I did not know to delete the HILPT and the autopilot followed as instructed. ATC called me and asked my intentions and if I was breaking off the approach.  After a moment of spacial confusion, confessed, corrected, and proceded down the path to the FIF.

Best advice, have the IFD’s FMS page up and know what it is thinking/planning.  Correct it when necessary.  And most definitely, know the mode that the IFD is in; GPS, GPS->LPV, LPV, etc. and know how to make the correct mode active, if it does not arm automatically.  These actions are user setting dependent.
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