Two waypoints after activating FPL on approach |
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Melohn
Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2013 Location: PHNL Status: Offline Points: 148 |
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Posted: 15 Jan 2025 at 7:32pm |
I’ve noticed this behavior for some time, but was asked a question about it today and didn’t know the answer.
I’m flying a flight plan to a destination airport. Prior to arriving, I add via the PROC key an RNAV approach with an appropriate IAF. I continue to navigate normally, with my next waypoint active, and then a “fence” followed by the first segment of the approach. I have the soft key “activate approach” available. If I activate the approach, the FPL removes the “fence”, and the resulting flight plan has the current waypoint, followed by the IAF. It then shows the approach, with the first waypoint repeated. The second copy of the waypoint has an altitude restriction, while the first does not. If I select the second waypoint and activate it, the IFD changes into GPS->LNAV+V. If I do not, when I reach this waypoint, the IFD cycles to the next waypoint in the approach, and the GPS->LNAV+V appears. Why, when I activate the approach, does it not just sequence to the IAF and arm the GPS->LNAV+V? Thanks! P.S. The IAF in this example has an altitude higher than I’m flying at. I don’t know if this is related somehow, just providing it for complete information. Edited by Melohn - 15 Jan 2025 at 7:38pm |
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midlifeflyer
Newbie Joined: 21 Aug 2021 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 10 |
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I can’t answer the second part without knowing the approach and where you were coming from so it can be reproduced in the simulator.
But as a general rule, “Activate (capital A) the Approach” will take you to whatever you chose as your initial transition when you first loaded the approach, which is why many don’t ever touch it. It's not quite the same as what Garmin does in it's units, but it's problematic enough that I choose to go Direct to the appropriate fix or activate the appropriate leg as the means of activating (lower case a) the approach.
Edited by midlifeflyer - 16 Jan 2025 at 9:20am |
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Melohn
Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2013 Location: PHNL Status: Offline Points: 148 |
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I’m pretty sure this occurs on all approaches when you follow the steps I mentioned above.
If you want to reproduce it, start at origin PHNL, add a waypoint like CKH, then add PHNL as the destination. When you add the approach via PROC (say VOR-A as an example), and choose as IAF (HAUNA as an example), you’ll see a discontinuity as expected between CKH and HAUNA. You’ll also see the activate approach soft key come up. If you activate the approach at this point, there will be two HAUNA waypoints added, one that draws the track between CKH and HAUNA, and the other the first waypoint in the approach, which includes altitude restrictions, and arms the GPS->VLOC in the top right corner. I’m not suggesting this isn’t doing the right thing as far as navigating goes, I just don’t understand why two waypoints of the same name are added to the flight plan. Edited by Melohn - 16 Jan 2025 at 3:36pm |
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dmtidler
Senior Member Joined: 12 Feb 2016 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 622 |
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I don't recall the reasons for the change; however, double waypoints in this situation was an intentional change Avidyne made when AviOS 10.3 was released. Prior to AviOS 10.3, double waypoints like this did not exist.
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midlifeflyer
Newbie Joined: 21 Aug 2021 Location: NC Status: Offline Points: 10 |
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I don’t understand the logic of the double waypoint. Maybe something as simple as an unacceptable angle. But I do see it as a reason not to “Activate Approach” unnecessarily. If instead, you go Direct HAUNA and ignore the discontinuity, it all works. If you’re looking for the “why” or a different solution, sorry, I can’t help.
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AviSteve
Admin Group Joined: 12 Feb 2018 Location: Melbourne, FL Status: Offline Points: 2288 |
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I’ll use the KMIA RNAV9 as an example, which has an IAF at waypoint
LLEGG. Say the flight plan contains
V3.PBI and then KMIA. When I enter the
RNAV9 approach, the FMS will insert the legs of the approach, starting with
LLEGG, and precede the approach with a discontinuity. That
discontinuity is the FMS saying, “You need to tell me how you intend to get
from PBI to the IAF.” When you activate
the approach using the button, you’re telling the FMS that “I intend to go
direct from PBI to LLEGG” and the FMS removes the discontinuity. The approach *starts* at LLEGG, so the
leg from PBI to LLEGG is not a part of the approach. As a visual aid, you’ll notice that the procedure
bracket starts just above the second instance of LLEGG. In earlier versions of the FMS, we showed just one instance of the leg to the IAF. However, that’s not an entirely accurate depiction of the plan. The IAF (the point) is part of the approach but the path to the IAF is not. To clarify that concept, we introduced a leg to the IAF fix that is not a part of the procedure and then the approach starts with a leg actually marked as the IAF. In practice, the second leg just degenerates once the preceding leg sequences and you end up sequencing to the leg after the IAF. The real impetus for us to make the changes was because things got messy and confusing in the FMS when procedures were deleted. Using the KMIA example again, if you inserted an approach, closed the gap, and then deleted the approach, what is the desired result? Because you closed the gap, you effectively inserted a leg to LLEGG. When you delete the approach, do you delete that leg as well? You might say that’s an obvious yes, but what if you had manually inserted the leg to LLEGG prior to inserting the approach? Do you delete it then? We think the new solution eliminates that confusion and makes for stable and predictable FMS behavior. Also, while I’ll admit that it can seem confusing to have two consecutive legs with the same waypoint, it actually does a better job of reflecting what’s actually happening in the flight plan and being consistent with the depiction you would see on a chart. P.S. You noticed that when you closed the gap that the IAF had an altitude constraint and the other did not. That’s because the FMS removed the constraint from the leg that it used to close the gap. Operationally, that will have no effect because the FMS will still use the altitude constraint on the second one to compute TOD. However, if you were to go put a different altitude constraint on the leg to the IAF waypoint (i.e. not the one marked as the IAF within the procedure bracket), then the FMS would introduce a discontinuity between the two to indicate that those two points aren’t the same. None of this processing has anything to do with the altitude of the aircraft, though. |
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Steve Lindsley
Avidyne Engineering |
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Melohn
Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2013 Location: PHNL Status: Offline Points: 148 |
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Great explanation; thanks Steve!
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