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540 Interoperability

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ddgates View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 540 Interoperability
    Posted: 20 Aug 2014 at 9:33pm
Now that many of us are anticipating actually getting 540s - questions come up.

Examples:
1.  Is there any anticipation that the 540 will serve as position source for other equipments, e.g. GDL88, KT74, GTX330, and so forth?
2.  Is there anticipation that the 540 will be able to display Capstone data, i.e., Freeflight or Navworx output?
3.  Installing 540s and 340 TXP - should one hold on moving towards ADS-B in, or will there be a Avidyne box which satisfies the in part for both wx and trfc?
4.  Am assuming that the 540 will serve as heading source for 605A (when the A happens?).

more to follow.

Clear Avidyne planned to make their "plays nice with" list as inclusive as possible - but for most of us it is bewildering to divine what works with what, and what will work with what.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2014 at 9:43pm
The confusion is clearly understandable.  The devil is always in the details.

I'm sure more will come up but....

1. To some degree, yes.   For some, probably not ever.   We publish GPS position in an open, non-proprietary format.  If the listening device can take it, fantastic.   Clearly we are not optimistic that Garmin devices will ever willingly take 540 position data.   What complicates that even further are "approvals".  For example, even if the GTX330 can take 540 position data, the STC holder (or a new STC applicant) must amend their STC to add the 540 as a position source.   We don't have the ability to alter a Garmin STC (and vice versa).   We haven't taken the time to initiate the effort with BK on the KT74 being able to take 540 position data - it hasn't bubbled up high enough on our priority list.

2.  Yes, definitely.  We have publicly stated the 540 will support (as in display) Capstone data.  In fact, we've already started that effort for the next 540 and 440 release which is underway.

3.  We have a high priority project underway to have a solution for ADS-B In.   It will apply to both weather and traffic.

4.  Yes.
Steve Jacobson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2014 at 10:42pm
Thanks, Jake.

Forgot - connected panel? Realize you may not want to answer that one, but some of us did buy Aspens getting ready for DFC90.

David Gates
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 6:44am
Steve,

Are there different rules for different types of connections?

I can connect an IFD to a brand X audio panel without any paperwork from the manufacturers saying the combination has been tested.

If I buy a brand X box that speaks Capstone does it need an STC in order to be connected to an IFD in my certificated aircraft?

In the case of the AXP 340, KT 74, and TT-31, does Avidyne and BK hold the STCs or does Trig?  Is the STC to use a position source unrelated to the certification of the transponder?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 7:42am
There are different rules for different devices.     For example, an audio panel and a transponder don't require a STC.  In those cases, a STC is one means of installation authority.  Those boxes can also be installed under a field approval (337) since they are considered a "minor alteration".
 
For whatever reason, some installers don't feel comfortable installing equipment under 337 and in those cases, it's often in a manufacturer's best interest to pursue a STC, despite that extra and significant expense.
 
ADS-B tends to muddy those waters even more.    If an STC is pursued for an ADS-B transponder, it is almost always the TSO holder of the device that will secure the STC.   I guess I don't know if BK holds the TSO for their KT 74 but in our case, we are the TSO holder and we would be the STC holder for the AXP340.  That STC would be written such that the IFD540/440 is an approved ADS-B position source for the 540/440 - 340 combo.
Steve Jacobson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 7:50am
As for ConnectedPanel, we'll see.   We obviously love the concept but there is a proprietary interface/licensing challenge that seems to exist for it so our excitement has waned on that front.
 
For the time being at least, we'll focus on getting the wifi/bluetooth interface that is organic to the IFD540/440 certified and working with popular 3rd party apps.    That will be far easier and faster for us and doesn't have all the extra gear, wiring, and overhead that the Garmin, and Aspen approaches have.
Steve Jacobson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MysticCobra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 10:18am
I don't know if you're soliciting partners, but I suspect that the Adventure Pilot guys behind the iFly GPS would like to work with you.  They have been very proactive in supporting all the portable ADSB receivers and transceivers...at least the ones who haven't walled themselves off from interoperability (Stratus and Garmin being the primary examples, there).

They have a very active development team and support the iOS and Android platforms.

As a very happy iFly user and an IFD540 prebuy customer, I'd love to hear that you guys are working together to enable IFD/iFly interoperability.



Edited by MysticCobra - 21 Aug 2014 at 10:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 11:01am
Jake:

Ahh...the veil lifts a bit.

Hadn't thought about it that way.

Your wifi/BT already built in could go a long way towards your own "connected panel".  Why would you need Aspen to broker that?

The IFD delivers the flight plan to the Aspens (or future development, your MFD4000).  With WiFi you could easily have a tablet app enter/change the FP.  The same would be true for radio tuning, and so forth.

Now I see the potential power in the integrated WiFi/BT.

I am hereby volunteering to be a beta tester for that effort.

Thanks


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 11:27am
Exactly.
Steve Jacobson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 11:28am
Thanks for the suggestion on iFly.  I'll take a closer look.
Steve Jacobson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 11:52am
This is a good thread...useful.

They have had their struggles, as have many, but Anywheremap could be a partner - they have both iOS and Android platform apps.

Obviously not GP, FF may play, WingX probably would...and then there are the Android species.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 12:53pm
iFly has a nice product, but it knows nothing about airways. 

FlightPro is another solid product, with good interoperability.

AvNav EFB is about six months old, and developing fast. They have international navdata support as well, which is rare.

I am sure that all of these would jump at the chance to be in the loop.

And, let's not forget FltPlan! Their GO app is really coming along, and they are a big market player.


AnywhereMap was a great product, but in my observation, its business model is seriously struggling. I am not confident it will continue to be around.




Edited by oskrypuch - 21 Aug 2014 at 12:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 2:15pm
Understand your concerns - and I agree they (Anywheremap) need a shot in the arm - but they did just add XM to their android app (which is pretty good), and they are looking to add ADS-B in the short term future.

Agree Fltplan Go is a good possibility.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhbehrens Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 3:21pm
Allowing the IFD to be used as a bluetooth GPS position source for iPads and other tablets would also be a useful feature as Apple only builds GPS into cellular-equipped iPads.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 9:51pm
I looked at the Connected Panel website and found that the specifications weren't public.  I considered signing up just to see what happened but any agreement I might have to sign would need to be vetted by the lawyers where I work so I decided against.

Is there any possibility you can get buy-in from the tablet software companies for an open protocol?  If Hilton Software and ForeFlight were on board the rest would probably come too.  They're all frozen out of the Garmin ecosystem and would benefit from an alternative.

There are many examples of this strategy working.  And trust me, it can be a whole lot of fun to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MysticCobra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

If Hilton Software and ForeFlight were on board the rest would probably come too.  They're all frozen out of the Garmin ecosystem and would benefit from an alternative.

Not sure where you get the idea that ForeFlight wants to play with others.  They have an exclusive partnership with Stratus, and have made no secret that they're not interested in supporting any other ADSB product besides Stratus.  Similarly, Stratus has not cooperated with any other EFB developer.  As a result, if you want FF, you use Stratus.  I you have a Stratus, then you use FF.

Garmin is not the only company out there who chooses not to play nicely with others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2014 at 1:20am
I think there may be a difference, though, between portable units, especially those used by people who rent aircraft, and installed & certified units.

I would consider buying a Stratus to use with ForeFlight when I rent.  If I have to have a portable of some kind, I don't mind picking the one that works with the app I want to use.  But I have zero -- zero! -- inclination to use a portable solution in my own aircraft when I have a built-in solution that I have already paid for and installed, and that can't be easily changed.  It's one other thing to have to carry along, charge up, put in place, and try like hell not to drop into the bottom of the SNJ-6 where it will slide into the back of the tailcone in a pool of oil.

If ForeFlight doesn't work with Avidyne and/or Aspen's Connected Panel, then I will find an app that does.  I would hope that they value my annual subscription enough to try to keep my business.


Edited by MikeK - 22 Aug 2014 at 1:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2014 at 7:40am

I agree with Mike.  If foreflight doesn't want to play with others, then I will look for another app (maybe there's an avidyne app coming?) that will work and play nice with the equipment I'm about to install. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2014 at 9:15am
I hear that there was a lot of discussion (from FF) at OSH about them broadening their base of supported devices...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2014 at 9:47am
The Foreflight/Stratus thing is annoying.  But the Stratus doesn't drive an autopilot or set radio frequencies.  There is plenty of space for an IFD in their universe.  Garmin Pilot is their competition, not anything from Avidyne.  If I were a ForeFlight user with a GNS in the plane I'd be seriously tempted to buy a Flight Stream 210 and switch to Garmin Pilot.  For one AU (plus installation) it would give me a larger iPad screen, touch entry, victor airways, and more.

Foreflight did implement Connected Panel.  They're probably not real happy if it is tied to an expensive piece of Aspen hardware.

Meanwhile Garmin is the big competitor to Aspen.  The G500 has fallen behind in integration with the rest of their products but it wouldn't be surprising if they were to announce a firmware update that tied it with the Flight Stream 210, GDL-88, and Garmin Pilot.

Garmin is the big competitor for just about everyone in the industry.  No one company can match their product breadth and it would be suicide to try.  They can integrate their products to provide an experience no other company can match.

Maybe it is time for the Connected Panel partners to put pressure on Aspen to open the protocols.  If not then it is certainly time for someone else to propose a set of open protocols.

There are plenty of examples of industries where there is a dominant player with a closed ecosystem and a group of smaller players working with open standards.  For example in computer servers there is Microsoft and Unix / Linux, and in phones and tablets there is Apple and Android.

If the Avionics industry doesn't work on interoperability Garmin will be able to provide the best experience even though the other companies have better products.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pburger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2014 at 11:16am
Any chance that XM weather via the Baron Mobile Link (through the WIFI) is being considered for the 540?

Since I may be sitting on the sidelines for a while with ADS-B, it would be a nice interim solution to have the XM weather on the 540 via WIFI from the Baron Mobile Link.

Both Garmin Pilot and Foreflight support this for XM weather.  I use the Baron Mobile Link WIFI interface to get XM weather in Foreflight.  It works great and will support up to four devices.  

Of course I don't need weather on both the iPAD and the 540 at the same time, but was just thinking of the possiblities...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2014 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

Foreflight did implement Connected Panel.  They're probably not real happy if it is tied to an expensive piece of Aspen hardware.

<snip>

Maybe it is time for the Connected Panel partners to put pressure on Aspen to open the protocols.  If not then it is certainly time for someone else to propose a set of open protocols.

It's great that ForeFlight added the ConnectedPanel support, but the problem with Connected Panel is that there has to be support on the other side of the CP box as well.  You can send the flight plan from FF to the Connected Panel, but it then has to send it somewhere, and right now the only place it can go is to a Garmin 430/530, and only with certain software.  I haven't heard, but perhaps the KSN-770 does or will support as well.

If there were broad support on the certified side, from Avidyne, Bendix/King, JPI, PS Engineering and all those other companies that are on the Connected Panel web site, it would make it much harder for a company like ForeFlight not to support Connected Panel.

So, I think there's room for some pressure all around.  I've repeatedly reminded the Avidyne folks that they announced support for this product and urged them to follow through.  I should and will do the same thing with JPI and PS Engineering, since I own their products.  But I've also contacted Aspen repeatedly and urged them to broaden their outreach.  

Steve has indicated that Avidyne's reluctance is based in part on licensing and other roadblocks coming from Aspen, and that's just totally unacceptable.  Aspen should be pushing as hard as possible to get support for their system, not driving others away.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2014 at 5:37pm
MikeK,

Currently the only way to use Connected Panel is to have some expensive Aspen gear.  It requires a CG100 Connected Gateway.  That requires an EFD500 or EFD100 MFD, and I think that requires a PFD.  That is a whole lot of stuff to add just to be able to copy a flight plan from ForeFlight into a panel GPS!

If Avidyne were to implement code so their WiFi transceiver could be a Conected Panel server then Foreflight would "just work".  So would WingX and any other tablet software that implemented CP.

But Avidyne hasn't done this and it doesn't sound like they are going to.  Which means it is either technically very difficult or that Aspen's licensing prevents it.  The software engineers at Avidyne seem to be smart people.  So I'm betting it is the licensing.  If so, the CP community should either kick Aspen into allowing open use of the protocols or it should adopt a different set of protocols that everyone can use.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2014 at 3:02pm
Paul,

I'm well aware of how expensive Connected Panel is, because I have all those pieces!  I was already buying the Aspen displays.  I added the Connected Panel based upon all the support announced for it, including Avidyne's! Not just flight plans, but the ability to tune radios, log your flight and engine information, get a GPS position source from the panel mounted avionics to your tablet device, and on and on.

So, I'm disappointed that all of that support really has not materialized.  Steve says that it's in part because Aspen is being difficult, which is really lamentable.  I wish that (a) I had known that before Oshkosh, and (b) that I had made it to Oshkosh this year.  I find that it's really good to go by a company's booth and talk to them in person to tell them what they're doing that's great, and what I'd like to see them change.  I certainly would have liked to go to Aspen this year and ask them where's all this support for the box they sold me.

Obviously, Avidyne has their own solution, and if they can get support among the tablet software makers, they could do a number of those features within their own ecosystem (tuning, transfer of flight plan to/from tablet, sending information to a logbook app, providing GPS position, possibly even relaying datalink weather and traffic).  

That's pretty good, and would be a nice solution.  But there are still a few things like the engine data from JPI that don't naturally fall into Avidyne's bucket.  Perhaps they will forge the interoperability and relationships that Aspen promised but has not been able to deliver so far.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2014 at 3:06pm
Would be great to see Avidyne implement what Aspen didn't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2014 at 9:32pm
I don't know how CP devices communicate.  I did not find anything in the publicly available descriptions.  I assume one of the Aspen boxes handles interfacing CP to the Garmin GPS.

It would be nice if in a system where there is a CG100 it could handle the WiFi and the devices such as the JPI and the IFD could talk through it.  And in a system where there is no CG100 the IFD could provide the WiFi interface.  That would allow companies who invest in CP to leverage their investments to handle more configurations.

It is possible to design a protocol which allows a device such as an engine monitor to talk to a tablet through a device such as an IFD even if the IFD doesn't understand what the engine monitor is saying.  If Aspen didn't provide such a capability to CP they should add it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TurboPA30 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2014 at 5:30am
Originally posted by AviJake AviJake wrote:

Exactly.
So in the pilot friendly world, Aspen & Avidyne would agree that the IFD540 can also serve as the connected panel hub, via the built in wireless interface....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2014 at 7:38am

Good Morning Steve,

I have not been monitoring this lest recently, but I do believe you have stated that certain actions can be taken by using a 337 as they are considered to be "minor alterations". May I suggest that only a major alteration requires a 337? If the installation is a minor alteration, all that is required is a log book entry by a suitably licensed individual.

Whadda Ya Think?


Happy Skies,


Old Bob


PS Where's my box! <G>

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2014 at 7:43am

Hmmm.   Small point, but I note my last missive says I "joined" in July of this year! I paid my bucks in early August of 2011.  I really do like the light house symbol though.


Happy Skies,


Old Bob Siegfried

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2014 at 12:10pm
Old Bob,

Yup, of course you are right.  I don't know how I made that order of magnitude mistake.

"Minor alterations" = log book entry.
"Major alterations" = STC or 337.

Sorry for the blockheadedness.
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