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Leonard View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 11:25am
Inquiring about inexpensive ADS-b solution this is what I got.

Good Day Sir,

Currently the only Avidyne ADSB certified solution is the AXP340 Transponder. Other remote mounted or panel mounted ADSB solutions have not been certified to have the IFD540 be its approved position source so you will need to be looking at items that have an internal GPS with that system. This can be a confusing a complicated discussion for email. Feel free to call if you have any further questions.

 

 

cid:image001.jpg@01CF8179.165AD070

Monica Gualandri

1-941-360-6877 ext. 105

Fax: 1-941-360-6878

monica@sarasotaavionics.com

 

 

 

 

Product: kgx130-transceiver

Name: Leonard 

Email: sidegrip@aol.com


Comments: Looking for a low cost ADS-b out equipment    Currently have  Avidyne IFD 540 Garmin GTX 327 Transponder  I do not fly over 18k  but looking forward to making a few trips to the Bahamas    What do you suggest?      PLEASE no phone calls      1980 Saratoga   N8279Y

 
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DavidBunin View Drop Down
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Points: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidBunin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 11:29am
I think the operative word is "currently". Avidyne appears to be working on a number of solutions that will be available soon.  Of course "soon" tends to be at the whim of the FAA.
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Paul View Drop Down
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Points: 285 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 5:15pm
As I understand it the STC for a transponder working with a position source is obtained by the transponder manufacturer.  I think the AXP 340 and Trig TT-31 have STCs for the IFD 540.  Your least expensive choice is probably to buy one of those two and have it installed in place of your GTX 327.  You could then sell the used 327.

Your other choice is to install a transponder, either UAT or 1090 MHz which has a WAAS GPS position source.  There are some which are less expensive than the AXP 340 or TT-31 but you will need additional antennas and the installation cost will probably make those more expensive.

I looked into this a few months ago when we had our IFD 540 installed and I concluded the best alternative was to replace our transponder.  We bought the AXP 340 instead of the TT-31 because my wife preferred entering the frequency using buttons rather than using a knob.
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Leonard View Drop Down
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Points: 107 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2015 at 10:03am
Thanks Paul,
What brand of transponder did you replace?
LJG
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Paul View Drop Down
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Points: 285 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2015 at 11:06am
We replaced a KT 76C.  I had other reasons for replacing it, as it had needed repairs twice in the last three years and I didn't want it to fail again while my wife was flying single-pilot IFR.  Between the unreliability of the old unit and the addition of ADS-B out it was an easy decision.

It really didn't matter what the old transponder was, as we were doing a major stack upgrade - new audio panel, GPS, transponder, and roll steering converter.  Compared with replacing the KLN 89b with the IFD 540 the transponder wasn't a big deal.

We're using a Stratus II and Foreflight for ADS-B in.  We already had that and were used to it.  Now that we have ADS-B out it shows lots more traffic.  Having the traffic and weather on the IFD might be nice but isn't worth the money for us - no matter how much we upgrade the avionics it still is a Cessna 172.
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Points: 741 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teeth6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2015 at 9:55pm
I also went with the Avidyne transponder to get ADS-B Out.  I replaced a Garmin 330 in order to accomplish this and have been very happy with the switch.  I do miss having the TIS traffic since I got rid of the Garmin but look forward to getting traffic again when it become available on the 540 with the MLB 100.  For now, I am also using Foreflight and Stratus for traffic.
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Points: 102 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 310pilot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2015 at 8:32pm
I am amazed and disappointed that a FAA 2020 mandate can be so proprietary and hard to implement. I too was faced with the decision on how to implement ADSB with my new IFD540. I decided losing TIS-A from my Garmin transponder was an unacceptable short term sacrifice. The IFD could not provide a GPS signal to the Garmin transponder so just upgrading my Garmin transponder to ES was not an option. Given that, and the fact that I eventually wanted my IFD to display ADSB IN weather and traffic, I was told my only choice was purchase the Freeflight RANGR. With that scenario, I could keep my TIS-A and be setup to take advantage of Freeflight to IFD ADSB IN information when 10.1 was released. At that time Freeflight was the vendor of Avidynes potential ADSB solution and both companies had signed off on their intent to follow the "Capstone Interface", which was created to create a common platform for ADSB communications.
Since then Avidyne has decided to change vendors for their ADSB solution. Their current vendor strayed from the Capstone Interface concept and therefore the IFD will not work with ADSB solutions providing information via this protocol. Not only has this left me with an unusable "IN" portion of my ADSB solution but their choice of an unproven vendor in the ADSB arena as resulted in significant delays in the delivery of their ADSB solution.

The whole process has been incredibly frustrating and expensive for me. I hope you have better luck finding an ADSB solution that works for you.
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Leonard View Drop Down
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Points: 107 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2015 at 9:54pm
310Pilot..

I'm With You.... I feel the PAIN!!!! With Out the KY
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Points: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidBunin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2015 at 8:56am

I don't believe there is a singular "capstone interface" on the market today.  Capstone was a test program, and the FAA adjusted the requirements for ADS-B based on lessons-learned in that test. So a capstone-compliant box would (by definition) NOT be compliant with 2020 ADS-B.  There are many capstone-like interfaces, but there isn't "one" standard.

I know this does not reduce the confusion or frustration levels.  I too was caught off guard, because I pre-wired for an interface that I am now hearing will not function, at least in the near term.

For what it's worth, I have personally seen MLB-like devices that do interface properly with an older-model MFD device.  The data is there, and all of the features work, but from a human factors standpoint the pilot interface is not what the market expects today.
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Points: 102 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 310pilot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2015 at 1:27pm
David, appreciate the informative reply and I have no doubt you are spot on with what you are saying.

The 2020 Mandate only deals with ADSB OUT....the Capstone interface concept for display of ADSB "IN" data is not part of the mandate. This Capstone Interface or what's left of it is still achievable and it's what Avidyne stated their design intentions to be.
For example, the UPS MX20 was one of the first Capstone Interface displays available. Freeflight says its box is "Capstone compliant" and works as advertised, displaying on the "Capstone Compliant" MX20.
That to me says there was and is still a standard that can be used for display of ADSB data.

The cornerstone of my frustration is Avidynes letter to customers dated March 2013 that is titled "Avidyne Supports Standard Capstone Interface for Display of ADSB Traffic and Weather Services".
The letter states "We recognize the investment the FAA has made in Capstone and the importance of having industry-standard interface protocols that allow for compatibility with third party products as well as future Avidyne products".

This letter and implied mindset was one of the things that attracted me to Avidyne and this was either very misleading or completely untrue. It unfortunately has lead me down an ADSB path that has rendered my expensive "IN" solution useless.
For whatever reason the "Capstone Interface" concept has changed to proprietary interfacing.
That being said, I am still ignorantly optimistic that one day my Freeflight solution will display on my IFD. I know Freeflight has approached Avidyne several times in an effort to make that happen.
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Points: 765 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSimpson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2015 at 2:47pm
We understand and empathize with your frustration. It is true that early on, Avidyne sales did declare Avidyne products will support the Standard Capstone Interface.

As we dug into the engineering support of that, we learned (as reported on this forum multiple times) that there is no "standard Capstone interface", where the word "standard" is key. Every vendor has a different interpretation of what the Capstone Interface is and therefore a slightly different implementation. And, very few of the vendors, publish their version of the interface.   That makes it at least appear to be proprietary. When we were finishing up the 540 software to support ADS-B weather and traffic data, we did not have access to any other vendors data and therefore had to lock something down ourselves to get it out the door.  

In fact, to this date, we have no such data from FreeFlight. Sales force to sales force claims do not count when it comes to brass tacks. The Engineering data that really is required has never been supplied despite attempts to get it.

From our perspective, we can also state that we are currently "Capstone compliant".
Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation
Product Manager
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Points: 720 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2015 at 7:15pm
In addition to Avidyne stating they'd support Capstone, they also stated they did not support proprietary interfaces, but I don't see Avidyne allowing the 540 to be used as a position source for other ADSB solutions.
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Points: 2815 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2015 at 7:31pm
Are you kidding me? That's complete nonsense. We transmit a completely open protocol position data for any vendor to use if they wish. We can not force folks to use our position data for their ADS-B box. That is their call but we are not putting brakes on anyone to use that data. Period.
Steve Jacobson
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Points: 720 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2015 at 8:42pm
Why would I kid you?  Except for the experimental crowd, it takes more than an open protocol.  Please tell me which vendors you are allowing (and doing whatever work is required to support the STC) to use the 540 as an approved position source for a 2020 certified ADS-B solution?  All I've heard from vendors is that they could use Avidyne's 540, but Avidyne isn't supporting (by not doing whatever is required by regulation) it to be used as a position source.  Avidyne has said before that providing that support was not in their plans - might as well be proprietary...
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Points: 2815 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2015 at 8:53pm
No, I will not go on the defensive for this BS claim. We will give the interface protocol to ANY company who wants it for their ADS-B box that needs it. It is not our obligation to force feed it down other vendors throats.

Your claim is infuriating.
Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com
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Points: 406 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pburger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2015 at 9:03pm
When I was debating whether to get the King KT-74 or the Avidyne transponder, I had a dialog with King about them adding the Avidyne as a position source to their STC.  I never heard anything that suggested that Avidyne needed to do anything to make that happen.  The basic message I got was that they had Garmin as a listed source and weren't sure if they thought it was worth adding Avidyne to their STC. I assume they'd have to test their box with each particular position source to prove that it works.  I repeat - the vendor NEVER said or implied that Avidyne was holding anything up.  King just didn't want to pursue it at that time.

(I ended up with the Avidyne transponder, BTW)
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Leonard View Drop Down
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Points: 107 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2015 at 9:30pm
Originally posted by brou0040 brou0040 wrote:

In addition to Avidyne stating they'd support Capstone, they also stated they did not support proprietary interfaces, but I don't see Avidyne allowing the 540 to be used as a position source for other ADSB solutions.

+1

I'm at    "soo much for the plug and play"!!


I have a second unit I have not received " my decision " because of this uncertainty of universal swap & play!



Edited by Leonard - 18 Jun 2015 at 9:41pm
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George View Drop Down
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Points: 82 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2015 at 9:46pm
I have the IFD 540 for pos source on a BK KT74. Works great, but King has not STCed it.
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Points: 131 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobsV35B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2015 at 10:09pm

Good Evening George,

There is no way I will ever understand all this mickey mouse set of rules and regulations, but it appears that Avidyne has supplied data which anyone can use if they so desire to feed the position information to their own proprietary transponder. If King, or anyone else, does not choose to use position data from Avidyne, I see no reason we should be angry with Avidyne.

Holler at King! 

In any case, will we need the STC to be in place before January 1, 2020?

Maybe no big deal?

Happy Skies,

Old Bob
Old Bob, Ancient Aviator
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