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brou0040 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09 Jun 2015 at 9:44am
Title pretty much asks the question.

Here's what I ran into yesterday.  Flying into KTUS, I typically land on 11 (L or R) so I set up the flight plan for the Dingo5 Arrival with the GBN transition (GBN is part of my flight plan already flying in from the NW).  Then I add the LPV 11L approach using the Dingo transition.  The problem is that the arrival goes past DINGO to MAVVA and the approach starts back at DINGO so there is not only a gap in the flight plan as it shows, but an overlap that I cannot fix.  The only thing I can think to do is to manually add the arrival (defeats the purpose) or manually hit direct to overflying DINGO, that shouldn't be necessary.

Any other ideas?
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We are *looking at* adding the ability to delete waypoints within a procedure in a future release (10.2 or something along those lines). 

After the first DINGO, do you proceed directly to TACUB?


Edited by AviSimpson - 09 Jun 2015 at 2:51pm
Simpson Bennett
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MysticCobra View Drop Down
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Simpson, are you also adding the ability to insert new waypoints within a procedure?

Over the weekend, I was cleared to fly the BLUBELL THREE arrival to T41.  En route, I got an amended clearance to proceed from CLL to TNV (a waypoint that's not part of the arrival) and depart TNV on a specific radial.

The only way I could figure out to put that into the FMS was to clear out the procedure and re-enter the procedure waypoints still in front of me manually, then TNV.  Further, I had to manually transition from GPS to VLOC to fly the radial (I might have been able to go to OBS, but couldn't figure that out in the air and can't practice that on the simulator).

Would have been easier for me if I could have simply inserted TNV after CLL and then cleared out the subsequent procedure waypoints.  (Would also have been easier if I could have told the FMS to automatically transition from GPS to VLOC (or OBS?) at TNV...is there already a way to do that?)


Edited by MysticCobra - 09 Jun 2015 at 2:27pm
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We are looking into the 2 features and if there is any impact (regulatory wise). They are both features that have been added to the requested feature list and we will investigate what it will take to add them.

What happened after the radial transition on the amended clearance? Was it to continue on the BLUBELL arrival?
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MysticCobra View Drop Down
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Originally posted by AviSimpson AviSimpson wrote:

What happened after the radial transition on the amended clearance? Was it to continue on the BLUBELL arrival?
Typically by that point in the arrival, ATC is providing vectors, and that's what happened in this case.
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brou0040 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by AviSimpson AviSimpson wrote:

We are *looking at* adding the ability to delete waypoints within a procedure in a future release (10.2 or something along those lines). 

After the first DINGO, do you proceed directly to TACUB?

Due to a busy closed runway and me being able to use the "other runway", I didn't fly any of this.  I expect that I could get the arrival as it is written or to proceed to TACUB after DINGO.  I'd like to have the flexibility to set that up.
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Originally posted by MysticCobra MysticCobra wrote:

Over the weekend, I was cleared to fly the BLUBELL THREE arrival to T41.  En route, I got an amended clearance to proceed from CLL to TNV (a waypoint that's not part of the arrival) and depart TNV on a specific radial.

The only way I could figure out to put that into the FMS was to clear out the procedure and re-enter the procedure waypoints still in front of me manually, then TNV.  Further, I had to manually transition from GPS to VLOC to fly the radial (I might have been able to go to OBS, but couldn't figure that out in the air and can't practice that on the simulator).

Would have been easier...?

... to just tune in the VOR maybe?

Automation isn't always the answer for everything.

David
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cavu View Drop Down
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If given a clearance to "Hold 25 miles SW of the UCA VOR on the 140 radial", in other words at an unnamed fix, how would you go about doing that?
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edanford View Drop Down
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You would generate a Wpt (like WP001)  that is defined by UCA  Vor, 140 radial ,  25nm (This can be done on wpt page of IFD540 using the edit mode.

You can then enter a that as point in your flight plan and place a hold there

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MysticCobra View Drop Down
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Originally posted by DavidBunin DavidBunin wrote:

Would have been easier...?

... to just tune in the VOR maybe?

Automation isn't always the answer for everything.

No, it's not.  And thanks, but I'm well aware that I can turn off the GPS and fly my plane just fine.

However, I do like to understand how to use every asset in the cockpit, so that I always know what all of my options are.

I don't yet know everything there is to know about this box.  This weekend's experience was an opportunity to understand better what it can and cannot do.  

One day, I might be bouncing around in the clag by myself struggling to keep my headset attached to my head while I'm briefing an approach, and I don't want to have to turn off the autopilot and hand-fly the plane simply because I never figured out how to insert a VOR+radial leg into the FMS so the GPSS could continue flying my cleared route.




Edited by MysticCobra - 11 Jun 2015 at 11:53pm
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cavu View Drop Down
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Thanks Ed.

That was my thinking too but just couldn't figure how to do that.  I have to remember to look at the soft keys on the left bezel.  They often give an indication of what ones options are.

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chflyer View Drop Down
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I'm finding that thinking to look at the LSK's is something new with this box and takes a bit of practice. It's very efficient, but a new and different way of working. Once the habit has developed to always check the LSK's, many many things are almost trivial to achieve. Sometimes we look too much for a hard way to do what we want.
Vince
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Sorry, I meant no offense.  I applaud trying to learn everything about the capabilities in our cockpits.  I am just a beginner myself.

But in reading your post, and all of the effort you put into it, and the words "wouldn't it be easier" just jumped out at me.

I don't have an autopilot, but if I did, and problems were starting to stack up for me, I think I would drop it down into HDG mode and let it fly a straight line while I figured it out.

Not saying that's the right answer, just saying that's where my comfort zone would be.
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MysticCobra View Drop Down
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The situation I was in involved flying to one more waypoint in the arrival, and then deviating from the arrival procedure.  The simplest way to do that would have been to insert the VOR after the next valid waypoint, then deleting the rest.  A few button pushes, and then done...or at least I thought it should be so easy.  When it wasn't immediately apparent how to do that, I decided it was worth expending a few minutes to try to figure it out.  The weather was nice, my workload was light, and it was an ideal time to try to learn something about my equipment.  

Had I chosen not to fiddle with the box and fly only what I knew how to do, I would not have been able to just immediately dial the VOR and move on, because I wasn't there yet.  I'd need to fly to the waypoint I was cleared to, and then remember to change AP modes and dial in the VOR.  That's simple, but it's not necessarily best.  I have an autopilot, GPSS, and a capable GPS navigator to assist me in flying single-pilot IFR.  Choosing to turn off those assistants because I don't understand how to make them work for my current situation is always an option, but that's like telling a qualified co-pilot to sit quietly with his hands in his lap and his eyes closed.  It's a waste of valuable resources.
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Originally posted by AviSimpson AviSimpson wrote:

We are looking into the 2 features and if there is any impact (regulatory wise). They are both features that have been added to the requested feature list and we will investigate what it will take to add them.

What happened after the radial transition on the amended clearance? Was it to continue on the BLUBELL arrival?


Any update on this?
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Catani View Drop Down
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Originally posted by brou0040 brou0040 wrote:

Title pretty much asks the question.

Here's what I ran into yesterday.  Flying into KTUS, I typically land on 11 (L or R) so I set up the flight plan for the Dingo5 Arrival with the GBN transition (GBN is part of my flight plan already flying in from the NW).  Then I add the LPV 11L approach using the Dingo transition.  The problem is that the arrival goes past DINGO to MAVVA and the approach starts back at DINGO so there is not only a gap in the flight plan as it shows, but an overlap that I cannot fix.  The only thing I can think to do is to manually add the arrival (defeats the purpose) or manually hit direct to overflying DINGO, that shouldn't be necessary.

Any other ideas?
Load the FMS as you describe.  Why?  Because you've actually filed the Dingo5 arrival, and unless you are cleared differently, you're going all the way to Mavva and then will get vectors to final.  So when actually flying this route and this is how you get cleared, load your FMS as you describe and do nothing until you get vectors to final either before or after Mavva.  When that happens, on your FMS activate the leg between Tacub and Litpe, fly the assigned heading, intercept final, and delete the hold so it sequences you onto the next fix.

Something else might happen though.  You might get to GBN, and get cleared for the approach from there or shortly thereafter.  Proceed direct to Tacub and let the FMS do its thing.  If cleared to Lipte, proceed direct, and clarify (if need be) whether you are cleared straight in.  If cleared straight in, go to the FMS page and delete the hold.  Otherwise, let the FMS fly the PT.  The FMS should take it from there.

And of course, you may get cleared for another approach and you need to be ready for that, too.  Obviously, that means changing the FMS flight plan you've pre-loaded, but we need to be ready to do that anytime anyway.

I don't think you are going to be able to program the FMS in advance to take into account all possibilities for ATC clearances, but loading it the way you did and just waiting for ATC instructions and then telling the FMS which fixes to skip or proceed to will cover all your bases I think.

I don't see the need to program the FMS to do anything fancier here, IMHO.


Edited by Catani - 08 Sep 2016 at 9:52pm
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Catani,

Your answer might be appropriate based on the details of the original post.  However, the OP touches on a more general problem:  How to avoid having undesired waypoints in the FMS flight plan when cleared on a route that does not include them.  For instance, as described in my thread here, when given a clearance by ATC that does not include a transition on a departure, or otherwise uses a SID/STAR pair that share a common en-route intersection that forms the transition point rather than joining at published termination points.

Note that I said, "given a clearance" rather than "flight plan as filed".  This situation has happened to me many times where I fly, and I still don't know how to handle it gracefully with the FMS, because I end up with a SID loaded that goes past where I am cleared to go, and a STAR loaded that starts someplace I am not cleared to go, and I can see the common waypoint in two places in the FMS, and I can't figure out how to prune the two procedures so that they join at that common waypoint like ATC told me to fly it.

This situation can't just be waved away because the OP happened not to use the word "cleared".


Edited by MysticCobra - 09 Sep 2016 at 8:13am
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Catani View Drop Down
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Originally posted by MysticCobra MysticCobra wrote:

Catani,

Your answer might be appropriate based on the details of the original post. 
Keeping to topic in this thread, you seem doubtful I addressed the issue, or maybe even got it wrong.  I'm no expert, so I'd genuinely like to know how you think I got it wrong in case I did.  Please post any reply to this thread.

Originally posted by MysticCobra MysticCobra wrote:

 However, the OP touches on a more general problem:  How to avoid having undesired waypoints in the FMS flight plan when cleared on a route that does not include them.  For instance, as described in my thread here...
Thread creep, different issues.  I read your thread, had the same experiences myself several times, but wasn't moved to respond since you well understood how the FMS worked (unlike the OP in this thread I was trying to help), how to make the plane do what you want (unlike the OP in this thread I was trying to help), and it wasn't something that concerned me enough to pile on (since you made your point well already).  If I had shared your concerns as deeply as you, I would have posted a similar thread last year when I noticed it.

In the meantime, you and I understand how the FMS works, how to get the plane to fly the correct route by staying on top of what waypoint you are at, and what waypoint you want to go to next - something we did before FMSs and GPSs anyway.  So I don't think it's a critical problem, but do agree at some point it should get fixed to make the IFDs work even better.  As I recall from reading that thread, Avidyne is on it.


Edited by Catani - 09 Sep 2016 at 10:22am
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brou0040 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

Originally posted by MysticCobra MysticCobra wrote:

Catani,

Your answer might be appropriate based on the details of the original post. 
Keeping to topic in this thread, you seem doubtful I addressed the issue, or maybe even got it wrong.  I'm no expert, so I'd genuinely like to know how you think I got it wrong in case I did.  Please post any reply to this thread.

Originally posted by MysticCobra MysticCobra wrote:

 However, the OP touches on a more general problem:  How to avoid having undesired waypoints in the FMS flight plan when cleared on a route that does not include them.  For instance, as described in my thread here...
Thread creep, different issues.  I read your thread, had the same experiences myself several times, but wasn't moved to respond since you well understood how the FMS worked (unlike the OP in this thread I was trying to help), how to make the plane do what you want (unlike the OP in this thread I was trying to help), and it wasn't something that concerned me enough to pile on (since you made your point well already).

I'm not sure I'd go that far...  I'm also no expert, but it's not like it's my first day with the IFD either.  I want to figure out how to get the FMS to do what it should do.  I believe it currently is a limitation of the IFD, not my knowledge of the FMS, but like I said I am no expert.  I appreciate the work arounds you provided, but they are just that - work arounds.


Edited by brou0040 - 09 Sep 2016 at 10:53am
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Catani View Drop Down
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Originally posted by brou0040 brou0040 wrote:

I'm not sure I'd go that far...  I'm also no expert, but it's not like it's my first day with the IFD either.  I want to figure out how to get the FMS to do what it should do.  I believe it currently is a limitation of the IFD, not my knowledge of the FMS, but like I said I am no expert.  I appreciate the work arounds you provided, but they are just that - work arounds.
OK, no problem, we're all entitled to our opinions.  Personally, my preference is that Avidyne does not change the box, I am satisfied the way it deals with this peculiar scenario in a (to me) logical manner.  I'm also glad to have helped you make it work for you, understanding that you nevertheless prefer it worked differently.  That's one of the reasons this forum is nice to have.


Edited by Catani - 09 Sep 2016 at 11:50am
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Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

Originally posted by MysticCobra MysticCobra wrote:

Catani,

Your answer might be appropriate based on the details of the original post. 
Keeping to topic in this thread, you seem doubtful I addressed the issue, or maybe even got it wrong.  I'm no expert, so I'd genuinely like to know how you think I got it wrong in case I did.  Please post any reply to this thread.
My intent was mostly to bump some attention to what I consider to be essentially the same situation, since no Avidyne reps ever answered in my other thread.  

But if you really want to push it, then I would say that by addressing a couple of possible ways the OP's scenario could play out, you therefore neglected all other equally valid possible ways the OP's scenario could have played out (like ATC giving him a clearance that includes a common waypoint between two intersecting procedures, which corresponds exactly to what he was asking about--how to delete unnecessary procedure waypoints, in which case I disagree with your conclusion that you don't see the need to program the FMS to do anything fancier here).

Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

Originally posted by MysticCobra MysticCobra wrote:

 However, the OP touches on a more general problem:  How to avoid having undesired waypoints in the FMS flight plan when cleared on a route that does not include them.  For instance, as described in my thread here...
Thread creep, different issues.   ... As I recall from reading that thread, Avidyne is on it.

I disagree.  It's just one possible way the OP's scenario could have played out.

I also disagree that "Avidyne is on it."  I have yet to see Avidyne (Steve or Simpson) directly address this scenario and offer their opinion of how to handle it, nor have they committed to implementing the ability to delete waypoints from a procedure.


Edited by MysticCobra - 09 Sep 2016 at 8:15pm
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