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AviBryan View Drop Down
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    Posted: 16 Oct 2019 at 12:33pm
Hi VDH, 

I'm sorry you're seeing this issue. Have you reached out to Pilotsupport@avidyne.com or called our support line? I'm just trying to understand what you mean about not getting a reply in so long as this is the only post I see from you on this thread. My apologies if I'm overlooking the information but would you please email me at bkahl@avidyne.com with your contact information and Copy pilotsupport@avidyne.com. We will get you taken care of!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VDH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2019 at 12:16pm
I have a serious problem with my IFD540 where it consistently takes a very long time to acquire satellites.  It takes between 10 and 30 minutes for the unit to acquire satellites and the unit reports a "GPS Fault. No Position".  During this time the transponder does not transmit an ADSB-out signal.  It also occasionally drops out for 30-60 secs while in cruise.  
I recently had the latest software update but it made no difference to this issue.
I had my avionics shop download the logs a week ago and submit them to Avidyne.  The download took an excessively long time - like a couple of hours. Despite having had them for more than a week, my avionics shop has had no response despite following up multiple times. 
Avidyne - what is going on???  The aircraft is essentially unairworthy (at least for IFR) with this fault.  It is unreasonable not to even have a response after this length of time.


Edited by AviSteve - 19 Sep 2023 at 1:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ksdoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2015 at 9:59am
Nope, didn't fix it for mine.
 
After leaving the shop, 5 minutes into flight home the GPS signal failed again! I just returned from vacation and during both legs, the signal dropped once. It lasted a few seconds and then reacquired. I had to reset the Aspen back to GPSS and SV, otherwise no significant issues.
 
It has not had the same problem during initial startup as it did before, so there is a plus.
 
So, having installed the unit back in October, I have not had one flight where the unit did not fail at some point during the flight! And I'm on my third replacement unit.
 
Avidyne thinks they finally understand the problem and plan to send me a new 540 next week, so we'll see. I guess I'm one of the 'lucky ones'! :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teeth6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2015 at 1:10pm
Mine has been fine also.  No more GPS issues at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2015 at 1:02pm

I haven't had any recent GPS issues.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidBunin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2015 at 11:20am

I have almost ten hours flying behind version 10.1 now, and not a single GPS problem.  That said, I only flew a few hours with version 10.0.3.0 and I never noticed a GPS problem then either.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2015 at 11:06am
Just curious, for the people that were having GPS problems before 10.1 - have those problems been resolved? Did 10.1 fix the GPS lock problem?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSimpson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2015 at 4:19pm
That email address is the best one to send logs to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cajungene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2015 at 4:35pm
I had multiple failures on 5/26/15. I've downloaded th logs and sent them to techsupport@avidyne.com. Is that sufficient or should I send them to a particular tech?

Gene
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 8:15am
Correct.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 2:21am
Thanks Steve. So a yellow GPS indication without active flight plan leg is fine as long as there is no CAS message.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2015 at 5:21pm
Page 4-46 of the Pilot Guide defines the possible GPS states.

If on the ground and the system has not acquired a GPS lock within 3 minutes, you will receive a yellow "GPS Fault - No Position" CAS message.  See page 6-5 of the Pilot Guide.

If in the air and GPS is lost, you will receive a yellow "GPS Fault - Dead Reckoning" CAS message.  See page 6-5 of the Pilot Guide.

Or, as you note, you can look at the AUX page, SYS-GPS Status for detailed satellite lock information.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2015 at 4:22pm
The colour of the the Nav Source State (GPS) isn't a sure indicator of lack of GPS lock (will be yellow if no active leg programmed, often the case on the ground after startup). So the GPS lock needs to be confirmed by reviewing the Aux/Sys/Select GPS page (or indirectly via a quick "direct to" somewhere to force the state to green).

What is/are the status(es) on the GPS page that indicate GPS lock? SBAS Nav would seem to qualify. Are there others? The PG doesn't indicate the various possible values of this field. Other than this, it would seem that GPS lock would need to be deduced from sum of the various quality indicators on the page (Nav mode, HAL, VAL, Position, HPL/VPL, GPS alt, satellite signals, etc).


Edited by chflyer - 26 May 2015 at 4:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSimpson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2015 at 3:58pm
Yes. You can send the logs to me at sbennett(at)avidyne.com. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brou0040 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2015 at 3:55pm
Add me to the list of people who have had GPS fail to acquire at start-up.  I restarted the unit in flight and it was able to acquire.
 
Is it beneficial to send the logs in to verify the failure?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chflyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2015 at 8:50am
Simpson/Steve,

I have an early production IFD540 (s/n M144433036). I've had GPS lock-in issues at startup which I haven't reported but I believe my serial number is a candidate for the I/O board fix. I also now have a frequent but intermittent unreadable com transmission problem that will require ship back to Avidyne for repair, according to my avionics shop.

Who would be the best contact to discuss my options? I'm in Europe so returning the unit would put me out of business for quite a while unless I could get a swap.



Edited by chflyer - 18 May 2015 at 8:51am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMSutton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2015 at 12:08am
Eventually my IFD540 lost all ability to maintain a lock on the GPS satellites.  I had to resort to using my backup IFR GPS, a Garmin 430W.

Fortunately, my avionics shop was able to swap my unit for a loaner (their demo box) and send mine back to the factory for warranty service.

Hopefully I'll get it back soon and won't have this problem again.  The loaner IFD540 seems to be working just fine.

Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote comancheguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2015 at 9:54am
Orest -
 
Thanks for the clarification.    I will have to study the manual again, and maybe play with the sim before I get the plane back.  With two of these boxes, I will be overwhelmed with info for a bit.  I'll need a nice long cross country to play with them in cruise.
 
Ken
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2015 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by comancheguy comancheguy wrote:

So, Simpson emailed me about the right knob push changing between heading/track/north up.  
 
I verified on my flights over the weekend and to the avionics shop on Monday, that pushing the right knob DOES in fact switch between the views.  (Duh! Operator error).    Not sure how I missed that.  I suspect, that the setup page setting is the default view (heading up or track up)? 
 

You still don't have that quite right.


As I note above, if you choose in the user settings HEADING UP, then when you click the bottom right knob in a map view you will select between:

heading up with plane centered; heading up in 240* view; north up with plane centered.


If you choose in the user settings TRACK UP, then when you click the bottom right knob in a map view you will select between:

track up with plane centered; track up in 240* view; north up with plane centered.


* Orest




Edited by oskrypuch - 12 May 2015 at 11:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSimpson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2015 at 4:47pm
Glad I could help Ken! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote comancheguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2015 at 4:44pm
So, Simpson emailed me about the right knob push changing between heading/track/north up.  
 
I verified on my flights over the weekend and to the avionics shop on Monday, that pushing the right knob DOES in fact switch between the views.  (Duh! Operator error).    Not sure how I missed that.  I suspect, that the setup page setting is the default view (heading up or track up)? 
 
I have no more info to report about the issue (where the little airplane is NOT pointing where the ship is pointing in relation to the map.)    But, now that I know how to switch between track / heading / north, maybe I can learn something more. 
My comanche is in the shop having the old Narco Mk12D removed for the second IFD-540.   Just found out that my Shadin doesn't support output to a GPS box (no big deal).    Hopefully, 10.1 will be approved while it is still there, so that I can leave with the new software, to go with my spiffy new hardware. 
 
I feel much better about the situation with these teething pains.  My avionics shop (who has a stellar reputation) says, "Avidyne will 100% get past this and get these little issue resolved".    This is not unheard of for new products.  He pointed out that those who got a big discount to be an early adopter, may expect to suffer a bit in the begininng.    I am hopeful that 10.1 will squash this bug. 
Another case where the FAA super-oversight is a hinderance to safety. 
 
 
Ken
 

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2015 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by comancheguy comancheguy wrote:

I....   I see no difference at ALL between setting track up or heading up.  Nothing changes when I select either one.  There is no option for North up that I can find.  This may be operator error, but I can't figure it out.  

There are two different settings, one is in the user settings (heading up versus track up), which you discovered. When flying, with any cross wind, you will see the plane crabbed. With heading up your plane nose will be straight up, with track up, the nose will be one way or the other and the dotted track line will be straight up. When you are on the ground, not moving, there is of course no difference between the two.

The other is switched through track (or heading) up plane centered, track (or heading) up with a 240* view, and north up. This is done by clicking the right knob in, when on the map view.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 09 May 2015 at 4:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote comancheguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2015 at 1:21pm
I sent my logs in.  I got an email from sergio about it.   I will reply to him, as well.   I see no difference at ALL between setting track up or heading up.  Nothing changes when I select either one.  There is no option for North up that I can find.  This may be operator error, but I can't figure it out.  

I go in Monday morning and spend an alarming amount of cash to have the second one installed.  So, I'll have your dealer work with you and maybe we can make some progress. 
 

Ken
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MysticCobra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2015 at 11:08am
Originally posted by oskrypuch oskrypuch wrote:

When you have the GPS outage in the air, how long does it last? Just curious.

It varies wildly.  On the flight where it was the worst (a 3+ hr leg), the outages could last upwards of several minutes, but sometimes it was only a few seconds.  I might get three outages in 5 min, then I might fly for an hour before another outage.  

I think that was the flight that I tried power-cycling the 540 in air to clear the issue, which did seem to help, but didn't completely fix it...if I recall correctly, I did get at least one or two more outages after that also.

Most of my flights have not had an issue.  My typical legs are between 45 min and 2 hrs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2015 at 12:27pm
Back when my box was faulting on the ground, I would occasionally see a short in-air loss too. I would notice it because I would get an IFD540 CAS alert for the stormscope (or was it traffic), because it uses heading.

Happily, my exchanged unit has been solid.

* Orest



Edited by oskrypuch - 06 May 2015 at 12:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ksdoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2015 at 11:39am
[QUOTE=oskrypuch]When you have the GPS outage in the air, how long does it last? Just curious.

* Orest

Inflight, usually less than a minute. Once flying a SID out of Vegas, though in VFR. On the ground recently, I have had to recycle the box 4 times before acquiring a signal.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sikhpilotmd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2015 at 9:41am
I had a similar issue for a few seconds in air
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2015 at 9:19am
When you have the GPS outage in the air, how long does it last? Just curious.

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MysticCobra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2015 at 7:12am
Originally posted by ksdoc ksdoc wrote:

Until just recently, all of my failures have been while airborne. Some within 30 minutes, others after several hours of flight.

Same here.  Of the dozen or so flights I've taken since my install, three or so involved at least one loss of GPS position while in flight.  Last Friday, I had the first experience of no GPS position on the ground at startup, but it had acquired by the time I taxiied for fuel and completed my runup, so it wasn't an issue.

Steve, I haven't contacted anyone at Avidyne about this because I thought all the GPS loss issues were known and being addressed, but it sounds like it'd be a good idea to go ahead and send in my logs.  Could you remind me who to send them to?


Edited by MysticCobra - 06 May 2015 at 7:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMSutton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2015 at 6:11pm
Originally posted by AviJake AviJake wrote:

Yours sounds like it is in-flight, well after takeoff and initialization.   I know our GPS team is investigating each of the reports - do you know if they have your logs?

I haven't sent in my logs yet.  Should I do that and if so, to whom should I send them?

Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2015 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by ddgates ddgates wrote:

I cancelled this weekend when both 540s didn't acquire GPS lock (my cell phone had lock).

I too hope that 10.1 fixes this. 



David,

We were waiting on your logs to confirm.  Did you have a chance to grab and send them yet?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2015 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by GMSutton GMSutton wrote:

Next in line:  My IFD540 recently started exhibiting this behavior as well.  On a recent flight of less than an hour, my unit lost and re-acquired GPS signal about a dozen times.  Very irritating to say the least!

Luckily, I kept my GNS430W in my panel to provide an approved WAAS signal to my GTX330ES transponder.  So I have a legal backup for IFR flight.  However, I can't couple my autopilot to the 430W.

Steve, what would you suggest we do while we wait for the software release 10.1?  The problem with my unit losing GPS lock seems to be getting worse...

Mike
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Yours sounds like it is in-flight, well after takeoff and initialization.   I know our GPS team is investigating each of the reports - do you know if  they have your logs?
Steve Jacobson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2015 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by comancheguy comancheguy wrote:

When i departed, I had the same old issue where the heading was correct, but the plane was pointing the wrong way.  This is NOT a track up vs Heading up vs north up issue.  
Very disorienting to look over at the box at 200' and see RED all over from the FLTA stuff, and the airplane pointing back at the runway vs at my heading.  




I've been away from this for too long.  Are the Avidyne tech support guys on this one?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2015 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by comancheguy comancheguy wrote:



I hope that the 10.1 fix is it, because this is a show stopper.




Should be.  Definitely is for the I/O board related GPS issues (which are all the ones that happen during start up that we know about)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2015 at 5:17pm
Originally posted by comancheguy comancheguy wrote:

Well, My karma just bit me.  Taxiing out for a business trip, my 540 lost GPS signal and didn't reacquire when I was ready to launch.  Power cycle and it came back.  


Not karma, just a software issue that we induced.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2015 at 5:14pm

[/QUOTE]

Do you expect it will also resolve similar GPS losses which occur in flight?  Most of mine have been on the ground but I also get a few shortly after departure.
[/QUOTE]

It's very possible but we'd have to look at the logs to know for sure.   I know we have some of your logs from past flights so we can either paw through those to look again or you can send a new, more recent set with a date tag of an example event and we can tell.

Our Tech Support guys have come up to speed on how to read the logs and know the signatures to look for.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMSutton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2015 at 4:45pm
Next in line:  My IFD540 recently started exhibiting this behavior as well.  On a recent flight of less than an hour, my unit lost and re-acquired GPS signal about a dozen times.  Very irritating to say the least!

Luckily, I kept my GNS430W in my panel to provide an approved WAAS signal to my GTX330ES transponder.  So I have a legal backup for IFR flight.  However, I can't couple my autopilot to the 430W.

Steve, what would you suggest we do while we wait for the software release 10.1?  The problem with my unit losing GPS lock seems to be getting worse...

Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SB Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2015 at 10:28am
Originally posted by AviJake AviJake wrote:

Software fix to address a hardware change.

Sounds good to me.

That must've taken some sleuthing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ddgates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2015 at 10:10am

I cancelled this weekend when both 540s didn't acquire GPS lock (my cell phone had lock).

I too hope that 10.1 fixes this. 

David Gates
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote comancheguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2015 at 9:58am
Well, My karma just bit me.  Taxiing out for a business trip, my 540 lost GPS signal and didn't reacquire when I was ready to launch.  Power cycle and it came back.   

I hope that the 10.1 fix is it, because this is a show stopper.  Luckily it was VFR and I had ipads and such.  
When i departed, I had the same old issue where the heading was correct, but the plane was pointing the wrong way.  This is NOT a track up vs Heading up vs north up issue.  
Very disorienting to look over at the box at 200' and see RED all over from the FLTA stuff, and the airplane pointing back at the runway vs at my heading.  

I have been very supportive, but...   My 530W is sold, and I am starting to get a bit nervous.   I am out of town and need to get home on Friday... 

My airplane goes in the shop for the second 540 install on Monday, BTW. 

Hopefully, the FAA will get off the dime and approve 10.1 SOON, and it fixes these glitches. 

Ken


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ksdoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2015 at 9:29am
Until just recently, all of my failures have been while airborne. Some within 30 minutes, others after several hours of flight.
kansasdoc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teeth6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2015 at 8:59am
Originally posted by AviJake AviJake wrote:


This *should* resolve every known case of GPS non-acquisition on the ground.  According to the data logs that we've gotten, everyone who is squawking a failure of GPS to lock on while on the ground is affected by this issue and should be resolved with this impending release.


Do you expect it will also resolve similar GPS losses which occur in flight?  Most of mine have been on the ground but I also get a few shortly after departure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2015 at 8:56am
Software fix to address a hardware change.
Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gring Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2015 at 8:55am
So, was it a hardware fix as described a few posts above, or a software tweak?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2015 at 8:32am
Well, that is very good news.

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviJake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2015 at 8:05am
We have determined it to be a solid fix and we did roll it into the 10.1 field release that we're waiting on cert for.

This *should* resolve every known case of GPS non-acquisition on the ground.  According to the data logs that we've gotten, everyone who is squawking a failure of GPS to lock on while on the ground is affected by this issue and should be resolved with this impending release.
Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhbehrens Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2015 at 4:01am
Originally posted by AviJake AviJake wrote:

We believe we had a major breakthrough on this issue this week.   Another day or three of testing to be completely sure but we think we finally found the root cause of the I/O card initialization issue.    A little ferrite bead was added to the board a while ago to suppress some excessive noise in the electric circuit.  This little devil changed the timing of the circuit just enough and just subtle enough to screw up the I/O board initialization which absolutely manifests itself in the behavior some folks are seeing.

We will verify the fix is a solid fix and then determine how we roll it in.


Any updates on this AviJake?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 94S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2015 at 8:02pm
Ok, Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2015 at 6:35pm
Yes it was an Avidyne tray and yes they know.  The tray was sent back to Avidyne for replacement. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 94S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2015 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by tony tony wrote:

Mind you that my install was new, but the shop saw that there was a rivet head in the tray (the way it was manufactured) that prevented the 540 from fully engaging the connectors in the back.  Fixed that and I haven't had any issues so far. 


Tony,

I'm assuming that when you say your install was new, that it was with an Avidyne tray.  Did your shop take any photos of the rivet, and has this info been forwarded to Avidyne.  If there is a photo, could you make it available so others can show it to their shops?  Mine is in the shop right now being installed.  I am going to mention this to them, but a picture would be worth a thousand words.

Thanks for posting!
David
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