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Warranty and repair options |
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FORANE ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 04 May 2013 Location: 0A9 Status: Offline Points: 57 |
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I read an article regarding Avidynes AeroPlan extended warranty which was not complementary. This served as an impetus for me to inquire about Avidynes plans for warranty support and service of the IFD 540/440 units. Article may be found here: http://www.aviationlawmonitor.com/2013/06/articles/general-aviation/avidyne-snares-owners-with-limited-time-offer-of-extended-warranty/
Please advise of warranty and service options on these units. |
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Lancair 235/320
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phkmn ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Feb 2013 Location: Chicago Status: Offline Points: 78 |
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$6000 minimum charge for post-warranty service???? Yikes.
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PH
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Paul ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 Aug 2012 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 285 |
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This is being discussed in the Cessna Pilot's Association forum and a Google search shows it in other articles or forums.
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glassanza ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Feb 2013 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 98 |
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This is an issue that gravely concerns me, so much in fact that it may be the determining factor with regard to keeping my pre buy order in place for the two 540's I have been patiently waiting for. I just hope Avidyne addresses this issue quickly and doesn't just hope it will go away. It will not...
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GDC25
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ddgates ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Location: Deer Valley Status: Offline Points: 1100 |
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Yikes.
A definite deal breaker.
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David Gates
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AviJake ![]() Admin Group ![]() Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
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The IFD540 is being offered with
a two year warranty for any customers that have taken advantage of our
pre-buy program. At this time we have not announced any extended warranty programs or repair pricing. We expect that to be available when the product is in full rate production. |
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Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
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glassanza ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Feb 2013 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 98 |
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Thanks for the prompt reply. I appreciate the 2 year warranty on the units, guess its a win-win, warranty perks and purchase price discounts for cash up front. If we are going to ignore the elephant in the room, i.e. the link to the article that started this conversation, my real issue has to do with fair repair costs, not extended warranty program language that I would have to personally read to comment on. That being said, I understand a PFD/MFD repair is a very different animal than a NAV/COM repair. For us "other brand" folks abandoning ship and putting out trust in both the engineering and support of your product line this is a big deal.
I am confident you will make us proud...
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GDC25
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FORANE ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 04 May 2013 Location: 0A9 Status: Offline Points: 57 |
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Steve
The $5,900 flat rate charge for post warranty service figure gives a startling first impression as may be gleaned from a couple of posts in this thread. If however one considers the cost of the Entegra / R-9 equipment it covers, the $5,900 seems in line with the industry based on a percentage of initial equipment cost. To help allay the concerns of some of us here, would you be willing to state that the post warranty service cost (provided Avidyne does offer flat rate service) for the IFD 440/540 units will likely be a similar percentage of initial purchase cost? |
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Lancair 235/320
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AviJake ![]() Admin Group ![]() Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
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Sorry the delay in responding. I think I do have the percentage stats at the office and will post them on Monday.
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Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
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tony ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Dec 2011 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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Steve, you never addressed glassanza's concern. I know you are heads down working diligently on the ifd540 certification, however some of us need closure on the "Release and Indemnification Waiver" referenced above.
Edited by tony - 29 Jul 2013 at 5:39pm |
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SB Jim ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 30 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 204 |
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Agreed Tony. This issue is heating up on various web boards as more people learn of the situation.
I've always supported reduced liability for the manufacturers in the GA industry. But that doesn't mean I can indemnify Avidyne to an unlimited extent. That's simply not realistic. I need clarification on this issue; it's not fair or proper business dealing to blindside those of us who put money down nearly 2 years ago on the IFD 540 with a warranty and repair structure that is either untenable or very expensive. I expect Avidyne to come with service and support that equals or exceeds that of Garmin. The IFD's have great potential, but this potentially can be a deal breaker.
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MysticCobra ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Jan 2013 Status: Offline Points: 652 |
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I expect you'll have to wait until after Oshkosh before you'll hear anything from AviJake. I'd guess they've got their hands full right now.
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AviJake ![]() Admin Group ![]() Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
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It appears that there is way more disinformation than correct understandings in the field regarding the warranty options.
We're collecting a lot of feedback at Oshkosh and will endeavor to publish as clear a description of the options as possible post-show, including the percentage comparisons.
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Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
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tony ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Dec 2011 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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Steve, might I suggest that you post your clarifications on avidyne.com for the whole world to see. Right now, if I am understanding the waiver correctly (and I'm not a lawyer), I'm inclined to cancel my order as well. I think that my sentiment will be repeated by quite a few. This issue being discussed on the Cessna boards, Beachtalk, Mooneypace, etc. Frankly I think Avidyne stumbled badly on this one.
What you're hearing is your very patient and loyal customers are angry, what you will never hear are the hundreds of potential customers that this policy is driving to Garmin.
Edited by tony - 31 Jul 2013 at 11:25pm |
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FORANE ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 04 May 2013 Location: 0A9 Status: Offline Points: 57 |
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Thank you. Publishing options will certainly help mitigate disinformation.
I agree with Tony here. Failing to address these concerns will only serve to promulgate the speculation disinformation and concerns of your potential customers. |
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Lancair 235/320
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SB Jim ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 30 Aug 2012 Status: Offline Points: 204 |
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Thank you Jake. I will anxiously await Avidyne's response.
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AviJake ![]() Admin Group ![]() Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
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Lot's of data to process - I bet you guys don't find that shocking. Drafting a description of the options now. Fitting it in between a number of other tasks so I might be a few days away from publishing it here.
I suspect the result will alleviate a number of folks concerns, fears or misunderstandings.
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Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
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glassanza ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Feb 2013 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 98 |
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Thanks for getting back to us regarding this issue Steve. I would hope that we can get some concrete language with regard to the terms and conditions and liability issues raised by this thread by October so we can get comfortable with them before the anticipated Q1 2014 ship date of the units.
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GDC25
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tony ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Dec 2011 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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Steve, Glassanza is just being so nice and politically correct. Let me translate Glassanza's statement into Jersey speak for you. If this issue doesn't get resolved by the time you guys are ready to ship, I'm afraid a LOT of people will be asking for their deposits back. The liability issue is huge.
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TurboPA30 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 18 Sep 2010 Location: 27XS Status: Offline Points: 138 |
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Steve,
a step in the right direction to keep us depositors happy. Maybe it could be expanded to a warranty beyond the normal 1 year equal to the total time in between deposit & reception of the purchased unit.....
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wsh ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: 05 Oct 2011 Status: Offline Points: 88 |
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I am not sure I understand this discussion. reading it closerit seems to be two discussions,.
1. The price for warranty extension and the repair price post warranty 2. A total liability waiver? Ad 1. In Europe consumer law states that a minimum of two years warranty is obligatory. Do I understand correctly that the mentioned warranty extension price for the Entegra is 5.900? Surely that cannot be the price for an IfD440 or 540. I cannot imagine that Avidyne would not put out a fair and competitive postwarranty repair price. I believe Garmin charges 850 usd (or euro?) no matter what for the repair of a 530/430. I have not heard the price for the GTN yet. Ad 2. I am not sure how US law works but in Europe there is a law that says that you must be able to expect certain things of a product, service, etc.. This law overrides all other laws, agreements and contracts. Basically it means .. For example .. You buy a new mercedes (a high quality car) with two years warranty. After 2.5 years and a normal milage .. Out of the blue the engine says bang and is a write off. With this law you can still go back to mercedes and claim warranty (albeit to a reasonabl percentage of the life expectancy). A mercedes engine should run a hell of a lot longer than 2.5 years with a normal milage. Ditto, a manufacturer can indemnify or teject any liability he wants ... But if big errors were made all those clauses become void anyway. Now how this works out in the unlikely event that for example an ac crashes on an approach while in IMC because there was a bug in the sw giving a .. Lets say false position .. Or in any case a wrong situation.. I cannot tell you. I believe it unlikely that it could be determined that thus was the cause .. Neither can I tell you wether all the rejection clauses would hold up. It will be a bit like the sfo crash. By the looks of it the cause seems to be that The crew failed to maintain proper airspeed while doing a visual without glideslope aid. Normally one would do this with autothrottle on, however in the 777 if you retrim you affect your airspeed.. This is by design.. Also there are .. Certain moments when a/t does not (re)engage. I believe below a certain altitude. Clearly their was nothing wrong with the ac One can blame Asiana Air for poor training as pilots should be able to land fully manual /visual and maintain basic flying skills like pitch, power and speed Or One can blame the Boeing training manual if it does not train for this sort of situation Or One can blame Boeing for bad design or bad enveloppe protection .. Say reason 2 or 3 were to be found as reason, would any liability waiver hold up in court? As i said I am trying to understand the problem, is t hus what is ment with the liability problem? |
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AviJake ![]() Admin Group ![]() Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
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I'm just now getting some time to address this topic/thread and will make a post before the end of the week.
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Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
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tony ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Dec 2011 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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steve, when you do address this, chose your words carefully. Avidyne just needs to do whats right. Many are watching.....
Edited by tony - 21 Aug 2013 at 7:17am |
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phkmn ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Feb 2013 Location: Chicago Status: Offline Points: 78 |
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At the very least, the warranty/repair has to be comparable with Garmin on their 6/750.
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PH
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AviJake ![]() Admin Group ![]() Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
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While I have a draft completed, due to the number (of what I'm taking to be well-intentioned and well-meaning) warnings we've received from the customer base, we're having to carefully review every syllable of the response. Couple more days it looks like.....
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Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
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glassanza ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Feb 2013 Location: Georgia Status: Offline Points: 98 |
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Thanks for keeping this issue active and working to get it behind us. I visit avidynelive very often and realize you guys are juggling six chainsaws up there working to get all the new products to market as soon as possible. Obviously we are all excited about getting our new brightly lit boxes and the last thing anyone intended to do was to distract from your efforts to make that happen. That being said, this issue has become a bit of a festering sore spot with many of us who should be your biggest sales force very soon as satisfied Avidyne product owners. I really appreciate the effort, look forward to getting this resolved and you back in the airplane doing the job I'm sure you enjoy most. |
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GDC25
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AviJake ![]() Admin Group ![]() Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
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This time it was me who dropped the ball. I'll have to dust off the company response from last week and post it by Friday.
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Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
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tony ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Dec 2011 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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waiting......
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Paul ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 Aug 2012 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 285 |
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I figure this answer needs to be vetted by senior management and by the legal department. If there's a delay we can always blame the lawyers. Unless Steve has cats, because cats can be blamed for anything.
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brou0040 ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 13 Dec 2012 Location: KIYK Status: Offline Points: 720 |
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This should have been vetted by senior management and the lawyers a long time ago. I'm not going to be happy waiting all this time if I end up going G due to poor support when I could have upgraded years ago.
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tony ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Dec 2011 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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Paul, this issue has been festering for three months. Its hardly new. How hard can it be to just do the right thing?
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Paul ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 Aug 2012 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 285 |
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I'm also frustrated. But in my case there is no real hurry in providing the information.
When I first looked at the IFD 540 the Garmin 650 was smaller than I wanted and the 750 would not fit in the panel without major and expensive changes. That's still true. And the Bendix/King KSN 770 would fit but was unavailable. That's also still true. There are a number of important things I still don't know about the IFD 540. For example I don't know how it will interact with my autopilot or whether I can connect an iPad without spending the cost of a new car. The extended warranty and repair costs are among the things I want to know before I commit to installing an Avidyne GPS, but I can't commit until the unit is certified and available so it doesn't really matter. Steve has been great about telling us what is going on but he doesn't discuss features and pricing much. This a forum, an informal communication between Avidyne and the public. I really want official information, posted on avidyne.com and sent by e-mail or US mail to people who have placed a deposit on a GPS. Meanwhile I'm being patient. I really like what I've seen of the IFD 540. Avidyne's communications, or lack thereof will be a factor in making a final decision. But it isn't time yet. |
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tony ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Dec 2011 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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So you’re not bothered by the fact that you
will have to sign a repair agreement where you agree that you won’t sue Avidyne if you crash, regardless of whether
the crash was Avidyne’s fault? You
also aren’t bothered by the agreement that if one of his passengers is
injured in the crash, and your passenger sues Avidyne, you will pay Avidyne’s
attorneys fees in defending the case in court? You also aren’t
bothered by the fact that if in your accident the guy on the ground sues Avidyne;
you agree to pay any court judgment
that is awarded against Avidyne; even though the accident turns out to be entirely
Avidyne’s fault and not yours? And then after you sell your aircraft, you are
on the hook forever? If the new owner crashes, and then
sues Avidyne, you will agree to pay for Avidyne’s attorneys and for any
judgment that the new owner (or his passengers) obtain against it. Frankly any company that even poses such a ridiculous
agreement is suspect. I’m hoping Avidyne
rethinks their position in this and publishes a fair and reasonable repair fee
schedule. If not, I am cancelling my
order. What I would sign to hold down
repair costs is a hold harmless agreement, but I’m not willing to be Avidyne’s
insurance company. |
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phkmn ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Feb 2013 Location: Chicago Status: Offline Points: 78 |
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Well said, Tony.
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PH
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AviJake ![]() Admin Group ![]() Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
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Let's keep it simple. Here is a short and sweet version of the standard and extended warranty data for the Avidyne products:
Customers
who pre-buy or have a deposit for an IFD540 and/or IFD440 FMS/GPS/NAV/COM
system will get a standard 2 year warranty from Avidyne. The
following is a link to the standard warranty coverage description: http://www.avidyne.com/support/warranty.asp. We have also published the out-of-warranty flat-rate repair pricing for the
IFD440 & IFD540 at: http://www.avidyne.com/support/Avidyne_OutofWarranty.pdf There is no requirement to sign any indemnification statement for the IFD540/440. We should probably start a different thread on that clause that is part of the AeroPlan Extended Warranty offering for some of the other Avidyne products to stop the fundamental misunderstandings. For example, Tony's posting above at 4:42 is not an accurate representation of the offering - it's way off the mark.
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Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
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Paul ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 Aug 2012 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 285 |
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I think you misunderstand me. Avidyne might have a repair agreement that I will not sign, or the price of database updates may be outrageous, or the GPS might not work the way I expect t to. If I find something unacceptable I won't install it in our airplane. For now I don't know enough to make such a decision, but it doesn't matter yet because Avidyne isn't shipping them. When I get more information I will evaluate it. Until then all I have is speculation and that's not worth much.
As far as whether or not it bothers me, this is certificated avionics. Certified avionics are insane:
(Steve, if you're out there you really should post the company response soon.) |
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phkmn ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Feb 2013 Location: Chicago Status: Offline Points: 78 |
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Steve, thank you for the clarification. 2 years and $1200 flat rate repair seems reasonable to me.
Now all I have to do is live long enough to install the unit :-) Edited by phkmn - 10 Sep 2013 at 9:58pm |
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PH
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Paul ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 Aug 2012 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 285 |
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It looks like Steve entered a reply while I was typing.
Will there be an extended warranty available? And will dealers be able to get small parts? $1200 to replace a cracked knob sounds like something another manufacturer is known for. Does it have a battery? If so, how long will it last and who can replace it? Edited by Paul - 10 Sep 2013 at 10:28pm |
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DaveM ![]() Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Jan 2013 Location: CZBB Status: Offline Points: 8 |
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Steve, my EX500 range knob is intermittent. Does not work initially, then works later in the flight. It is about 5 years old and I had the same problem when it was 1 year old. It was fixed then under warranty. Will I have to pay a flat charge (how much?) or can it be repaired by a local shop?
Dave |
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DaveM
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AviJake ![]() Admin Group ![]() Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
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At some point, we expect to offer some extended warranty options and I imagine a similar range of options as with our other products.
As for small parts like knobs, yes, dealers will be able to get replacement parts and at a much more affordable price point than the full unit flat rate fee. For example, on the EX5000/500/600 MFDs, rates for such parts are: $125 per set without radar and
$250 with radar (4 knob version). We also do replacement CF cards
for the MFD at $300. I'll check on the CMOS batteries and post an update in the next day or two. |
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Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
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MysticCobra ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Jan 2013 Status: Offline Points: 652 |
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There may be confusion and there certainly is consternation in the customer community regarding the Avidyne indemnification clause, and I agree that a separate thread to clarify that situation is an excellent idea. I hope that you are able to start such a thread soon.
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tony ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Dec 2011 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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Steve, thanks. That's the information I wanted to see. I'm still in the game and will continue to support your efforts. I know you have a tough job, just keep doing it.
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AviJake ![]() Admin Group ![]() Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
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I forgot to check into the CMOS battery question. Will try and tackle in next day or two.
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Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
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Paul ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 Aug 2012 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 285 |
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AviJake: The folks in the form want to know what is involved in replacing the battery in the IFD 540.
Lead Hardware Designer: Battery? Lead Software Developer: What's a battery? AviJake: You know, the battery that backs up the memory. Second Software Developer: Lead software developer has no memory. He stayed up all night again playing Grand Theft Auto V, I mean working on MPSUE issues. Hardware Tech, aka Soldering Cowboy: The battery is on the chassis. You have to remove the main board and the display. I can do it in half an hour. The repair techs take an hour but they usually have screws left over when they're done. AviJake: I can't tell them that! Purchasing Agent: Can you tell them it is covered under the extended warranty? AviJake: I think the battery is a wear part. And I already owe them an explanation about the extended warranty. Salesman: Besides, every time someone says "extended warranty" the marketing manager drinks another shot of tequila. Board Layout Guy: Hold on, Cowboy and I have an idea for moving the battery somewhere more convenient. We can route it through a couple unused connector pins. Hardware Tech: (grabbing a roll of green wire) I'll rework one of the prototypes. AviJake: I'll have to stall a couple days. I'll tell him I forgot... [Steve, I'm sure reality is nothing like this. But nature abhors a vacuum and usually fills it with rumors.] |
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phkmn ![]() Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Feb 2013 Location: Chicago Status: Offline Points: 78 |
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Very funny!!!
Tragically, lots of truth there, however. |
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PH
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Paul ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 Aug 2012 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 285 |
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No, it is pure fiction. Everybody knows marketing guys drink scotch.
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AviJake ![]() Admin Group ![]() Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
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There is a battery in the IFD540 (and 440). It holds up the unit settings memory and the on-board real-time clock. We also have a capacitor (aka "super cap") that is designed to hold up the battery and the super cap can stay charged for somewhere between 3 weeks and 3 months. The battery has a design life of 7-10 years..
So, in summary, the battery should work for 7-10 years. If at that point, the battery dies (there is a CAS message alerting the pilot of that condition), as long as the unit is powered up every 3-12 weeks (before the capacitor has lost all charge), the settings memory will remain intact and the real-time clock will be updated and no noticeable degradation of the unit will be experienced aside from the recurrent CAS message at each power up. Since the battery is buried inside the IFD, when it is time to replace the battery, it's a factory service event and not something that can realistically be replaced in the field. |
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Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
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wsh ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: 05 Oct 2011 Status: Offline Points: 88 |
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Now that I find strange
It is not as if the casing is special ... Airtight .. Vacum or waterproof so any good techy should be able to open it and replace the battery |
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AviJake ![]() Admin Group ![]() Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
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Agreed but the operative word you used was "good" as in "good techy". The problem is that many people would open the case and then some of the tight-fitting connections would be inappropriately altered. And, it seems like a certainty that in 10 years of field life, there would be some hardware mods that we would also accomplish.
Our position is that this is best performed by the Avidyne factory who will have assembled thousands of IFDs by that point.
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Steve Jacobson
sjacobson@avidyne.com |
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brou0040 ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: 13 Dec 2012 Location: KIYK Status: Offline Points: 720 |
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Since we'd be out of our warranty in 7-10 years, am I understanding correctly that I'll have to pay $1200 for a half hour battery change in addition to the down time to send the unit back to the factory?
$1200 is from the .pdf above, under repair & return or exchange for the IFD540.
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