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Wi-Fi issues?

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PA23 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PA23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Wi-Fi issues?
    Posted: 23 Dec 2019 at 11:45am
I had some major Wi-Fi issues on a long day of flying (almost 10 hrs, 3 legs) yesterday and I'm looking to see if I'm alone or others have seen the issues too.

I have reached out to the respective equipment manufactures as well but...

Wi-Fi devices -
Avidyne IFD440 - Default SSID using a custom PSK (password)
L3 Lynx NGT-9000 - SSID is my aircraft N number, no password the transponder can only transmit it cannot receive on Wi-Fi
The NGT is sending ADS-B traffic and weather to the IFD and was confirmed working throughout the issue, verified by receiving current METAR's and traffic.

Both devices use Wi-Fi channel 1 and this shouldn't be an issue as they are both different SSID's but....

When I departed I was connected to the Avidyne's Wi-Fi, and my passenger (also a pilot) tried to connect his tablet to the NGT's Wi-Fi and was unsuccessful, I was still connected to the IFD, I then reset the Wi-Fi on the NGT by pulling the breaker for the NGT's Wi-Fi module, after that he was able to connect for a while.  At some point along the way I stopped receiving data from the IFD over Wi-Fi, I was alerted to this by no longer receiving a GPS position from the IFD on my tablet.  I tried power cycling the IFD (turned it off/on by pressing the volume button), when it completed restarting I was still unable to receive data from the IFD.  I did NOT reset my tablet, just changed the SSID I connected to.

At this point I decided to simply change my tablet to point to the NGT for traffic and WX (I don't need to push flight plans) but was unable to connect to it again.  At this point I turned off the Wi-Fi on the Avidyne (pressed the top right knob) and reset the Wi-Fi again on the NGT, I was able to connect to the NGT's Wi-Fi again and I left the Wi-Fi off on the Avidyne and had no issues with the Wi-Fi on the NGT for the last 4 1/2 hr leg.

I can positively confirm that any time the NGT's Wi-Fi "went to sleep" resetting it always brought it back and once I turned off the IFD's Wi-Fi I no longer had issues with the NGT's Wi-Fi even on the longest leg of 4 1/2hrs. 

I can't explain the initial loss of data from the Avidyne, but not receiving any additional data after all the resets could simply be I need to restart my tablet which I did not do.  However what is more concerning is why the IFD and the NGT are not playing nice together with Wi-Fi, simple logic says that I should change the Wi-Fi channel on one of the units since it appears as if they are interfering with each other, however I don't recall anyway to do this.  In addition does this mean I need to be careful of any other Wi-Fi device in the aircraft?

Jeff
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Catani View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2019 at 1:11pm
I don't have my Lynx wifi module on a separate circuit breaker to my knowledge.  I assumed it was powered by the same circuit that powers the Lynx, and the shop did not tell me otherwise.  The only way for me to power cycle the Lynx wifi module, then, is to pull the CB for the Lynx.  That means, for me, the Lynx wifi module is always on.

I'm familiar with how to check channels on my home router, but not familiar with how to check the channels in use on the IFD or the Lynx.  Nor am I familiar with whether they can detect interference and change channels if need be, like a good home router.  I would think, in an airplane cockpit, that both L3 and Avidyne might consider a cockpit's remoteness from ground-based wifi networks to be sufficient insulation from interference, making channel-changing unnecessary.  Of course, neither L3 nor Avidyne may have realized it could happen anyway.

I have found the Lynx wifi module to be unreliable as well.  The iPad disconnects from it too often.  The quoted cost to replace it (...again, I've done that before which worked reliably for about a year) or remove it is prohibitive, for the little good it would do me. 

So I simply stopped connecting my iPad to the Lynx wifi network, and have been using the IFD's wifi for the past couple of years instead.  It sometimes disconnects also, but it's almost always just temporary.  When it does disconnect for longer periods, I've found that sometimes the Lynx wifi is working and I can connect to that.  Otherwise, I do without iPad weather and traffic for however long the wifi outage lasts.

I don't rely upon the iPad's display of weather and traffic at all, as a result - it's only a convenience for so long as it lasts.  The certified, wired installed displays for traffic and weather in my cockpit never have these problems, and that's what I rely upon.  I prefer the version of the Lynx with its own display for that reason.

I share with you the disappointment that these wifi connections are not as stable as I'd like. I'd prefer a way to wire the iPad to the networks.  I have the same experience with any wifi connection, and have just chalked it up to the pickiness of wifi networks and the myriad ways they can fail to attain or maintain a connection.  Wired connections are always reliably stable, in the home or the cockpit.

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PA23 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PA23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2019 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

I don't have my Lynx wifi module on a separate circuit breaker to my knowledge.  I assumed it was powered by the same circuit that powers the Lynx, and the shop did not tell me otherwise.  The only way for me to power cycle the Lynx wifi module, then, is to pull the CB for the Lynx.  That means, for me, the Lynx wifi module is always on.

I'm familiar with how to check channels on my home router, but not familiar with how to check the channels in use on the IFD or the Lynx.  Nor am I familiar with whether they can detect interference and change channels if need be, like a good home router.  I would think, in an airplane cockpit, that both L3 and Avidyne might consider a cockpit's remoteness from ground-based wifi networks to be sufficient insulation from interference, making channel-changing unnecessary.  Of course, neither L3 nor Avidyne may have realized it could happen anyway.


To check what channel everything is doing you can download simple apps for your phone and/or tablet, they are commonly called "Wi-Fi analyzers" Most of them don't do much more than tell you the channel being used, SSID, if encrypted, and the received power.

Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

I have found the Lynx wifi module to be unreliable as well.  The iPad disconnects from it too often.  The quoted cost to replace it (...again, I've done that before which worked reliably for about a year) or remove it is prohibitive, for the little good it would do me. 


I only recently installed the IFD and the previous flights with the IFD have been short, but prior to the installation of the IFD the NGT's wireless has been rock solid and when I turned off the IFD's Wi-Fi things were rock solid again, the question is, who's spewing the garbage and who can't accept the garbage?  Or is the problem mutual, I don't have a problem shutting off the NGT's Wi-Fi as the IFD's should simply re-transmit everything it receives over the wired connection, just need to make sure it stays reliable.

Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:

So I simply stopped connecting my iPad to the Lynx wifi network, and have been using the IFD's wifi for the past couple of years instead.  It sometimes disconnects also, but it's almost always just temporary.  When it does disconnect for longer periods, I've found that sometimes the Lynx wifi is working and I can connect to that.  Otherwise, I do without iPad weather and traffic for however long the wifi outage lasts.

I don't rely upon the iPad's display of weather and traffic at all, as a result - it's only a convenience for so long as it lasts.  The certified, wired installed displays for traffic and weather in my cockpit never have these problems, and that's what I rely upon.  I prefer the version of the Lynx with its own display for that reason.

I share with you the disappointment that these wifi connections are not as stable as I'd like. I'd prefer a way to wire the iPad to the networks.  I have the same experience with any wifi connection, and have just chalked it up to the pickiness of wifi networks and the myriad ways they can fail to attain or maintain a connection.  Wired connections are always reliably stable, in the home or the cockpit.



At the very least I should be able to select what channel to use, I don't know why it isn't a menu definable option.

Jeff

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Catani View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 2019 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by PA23 PA23 wrote:

At the very least I should be able to select what channel to use, I don't know why it isn't a menu definable option.


Agree that would be nice, but as I said it would not surprise me that avionics manufacturers fail to anticipate competing wifi networks in a cockpit that would make a selectable wifi channel a desired feature.  Perhaps customer gripes will persuade them otherwise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teeth6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 2019 at 1:08pm
I've been having a similar issue but not exactly the same.  This is a copy of an email I sent to tech support and am waiting for a reply.

Recently I’ve been having a problem with the 540 WiFi losing connection to both Foreflight and the IFD 100.   My IPad still shows it’s connected to the 540 and the WiFi indicator on the 540 is still green but the IFD 100 app loses everything and Foreflight loses the connection also.
I’ve tried restarting both apps with no luck. I’ve also turned WiFi off and back on with the 540 and accepted it again, still with no luck.
The ONLY thing that re-establishes the connection is to power off the 540 and restart it. When it comes back on and I accept the WiFi,  both the IFD 100 and Foreflight connect fine again.
Do you have any suggestions?

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PA23 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote PA23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2019 at 3:32pm
Got a solution! 

The NGT-9000 doesn't allow you to change the channel, although I think if I removed the wifi module and connected it directly to a PC's serial port I can program it. 

The Avidyne however has a very clever undocumented command that allows you to set the WiFi channel.  Simply change the SSID to be whatever you want and put the number 1, 6, or 11 at the end, for example the default LIO_WIFI, change it to LIO_WIFI6 and the IFD will use channel 6 and the SSID will show up as LIO_WIFI6.

I verified the change using a "wifi analyzer" on my phone and it showed the Avidyne on channel 6.

Jeff
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oskrypuch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2019 at 11:09pm
Originally posted by PA23 PA23 wrote:

The Avidyne however has a very clever undocumented command that allows you to set the WiFi channel.  Simply change the SSID to be whatever you want and put the number 1, 6, or 11 at the end...


Cool! Where did you come across that?

* Orest
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ Flyer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2020 at 2:36am
Excellent information, thanks!
Stan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote PA23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2020 at 10:51am
Originally posted by oskrypuch oskrypuch wrote:


Cool! Where did you come across that?

* Orest
Contacted support, they didn't immediately know the answer but made the effort to find a solution which was much appreciated.

After one flight with the change I didn't have Wi-Fi issues.

Jeff
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teeth6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2020 at 12:32pm
What is the benefit to knowing the channel number being used?  I assume you were having WiFi problems on one channel but not when you switched to a different channel?  In my case, the WiFi setting on my IPad says I am still connected to my IFD and the IFD has the green WiFi symbol, but all information transfer to both FF and the IFD 100 stops at some point.  The only fix is to reboot the IFD540.  Tech support feels I may need to replace the WiFi card in my 540.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote PA23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2020 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by teeth6 teeth6 wrote:

What is the benefit to knowing the channel number being used?  I assume you were having WiFi problems on one channel but not when you switched to a different channel?  In my case, the WiFi setting on my IPad says I am still connected to my IFD and the IFD has the green WiFi symbol, but all information transfer to both FF and the IFD 100 stops at some point.  The only fix is to reboot the IFD540.  Tech support feels I may need to replace the WiFi card in my 540.


I had two devices in my aircraft on the same Wi-Fi channel using different SSIDs, after a period of time the Wi-Fi on both would stop working and I found that if I turned either one off the other device would continue to function normally.   By moving one of the devices to a different channel (there are 11 channels, but only 3 are usable due to frequency overlap, 1, 6, & 11) my problem was resolved.

In theory I should have been able to have multiple Wi-Fi networks (SSIDs) on the same channel co-exist, what should happen is they should simply recognize the interference and retransmit their data, this would simply result in lower throughput and for the amount of data being sent should not have been an issue.  I suspect that the Wi-Fi modules in both devices are less than robust and when they had to retransmit their buffers overran causing the failure I saw.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teeth6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2020 at 1:04pm
Thanks.  That makes sense but I guess it won't help me as I use only 1 device.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 11:02am
Originally posted by PA23 PA23 wrote:

I had two devices in my aircraft on the same Wi-Fi channel using different SSIDs, after a period of time the Wi-Fi on both would stop working and I found that if I turned either one off the other device would continue to function normally.   By moving one of the devices to a different channel (there are 11 channels, but only 3 are usable due to frequency overlap, 1, 6, & 11) my problem was resolved.


Were either of your devices an IFD or a Lynx NGT 9000? 

If so, how did you change their wifi channels?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PA23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 11:16am
Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:


Were either of your devices an IFD or a Lynx NGT 9000? 

If so, how did you change their wifi channels?


See the first posting I said that I have an IFD440 and a Lynx NGT9000.

My posting on December 31 (about 8 messages back) starting with "Got a Solution!" explains how to change the channel on the IFD440, It's probably a fair assumption that the method is true for all of the IFD4xx/IFD5xx series units.

At this time it is not possible to change the channel on the NGT-9000.

Jeff


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skitheo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by PA23 PA23 wrote:

The Avidyne however has a very clever undocumented command that allows you to set the WiFi channel.  Simply change the SSID to be whatever you want and put the number 1, 6, or 11 at the end, for example the default LIO_WIFI, change it to LIO_WIFI6 and the IFD will use channel 6 and the SSID will show up as LIO_WIFI6.



I too have an IFD (540) and NGT-9000. I have frequent dropouts on the NGT-9000 data feed to the tablet. I have to suspect that some of it may be due to interference. Thanks to your great info, I'm going to re-configure the WiFi on the IFD and hope the makes the feed more stable.

THANK YOU!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2020 at 12:25am
Originally posted by PA23 PA23 wrote:

At this time it is not possible to change the channel on the NGT-9000.


Thanks for the info.  I see you posted that the NGT 9000 uses channel 1.  I see you use channel 6 now for your IFD.  Is that because it's better than channel 11 for some reason?



Edited by Catani - 03 Jan 2020 at 12:32am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PA23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2020 at 9:18am
Originally posted by Catani Catani wrote:


Thanks for the info.  I see you posted that the NGT 9000 uses channel 1.  I see you use channel 6 now for your IFD.  Is that because it's better than channel 11 for some reason?



There is no difference in one channel vs another and in the US there are only 3 channels available, 1, 6, & 11 without frequency overlapping, I just simply made sure the NGT-9000 and IFD440 are on different channels so they won't interfere with each other.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote afassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2020 at 12:15pm
I recall someone else posting in a different message thread or board, that it was confirmed that the L3 Lynx NGT-9000 Wi-Fi dongle was ONLY capable of being a Wi-Fi access point.  The NGT-9000 Wi-Fi dongle WAS NOT capable of supporting an Ad Hoc Wi-Fi network.

This means that a Wi-Fi client device can connect to the NGT-9000 for data from the NGT-9000, but that the NGT-9000 cannot support being the Wi-Fi hub for multiple devices. 

My personal experience bears this out.
Lynx NGT-9000+
Avidyne IFD-540
iPad Air w/ ForeFlight
iPad Mini 2 w/ Avidyne IFD100 app

When I tried to setup the NGT-9000 to be the main (only) Wi-Fi access, with the IFD-540 setup as a Remote Wi-Fi to the NGT-9000; it all worked at first.  My Foreflight, connected to NGT-9000 would get ADSB-In data, but would not reliably talk to IFD-540 (via the NGT-9000 Wi-Fi).  When I would start my IFD100 app (connected to NGT-9000 Wi-Fi), it would show Wi-Fi connected, but would never actually connect or share data with IFD-540.

Since Avidyne IFD software version 10.2.3.1 (or .0, not sure which version enabled this), the IFD-540 is able to pass along via it's Wi-Fi, the ADSB-In data that it receives from the wired connection with the NGT-9000.  Since updating my IFD software, I ONLY use the Avidyne IFD Wi-Fi setup as the main local Wi-Fi.  All Wi-Fi client devices connect to the IFD Wi-Fi.  Everything talks and shares.  I no longer use the NGT-9000 Wi-Fi, as the data  the NGT-9000 provides is available on the IFD Wi-Fi.

Thank you Avidyne for continuing to get it right with your ongoing product and software development.  Your responsiveness to the aviation community should be a model for all manufacturers.
Alex Fassas
Avidyne IFD-540
Lynx NGT-9000+
Aspen MAX PFD1000, MFD1000 & MFD500
Beech A36
KRGA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skitheo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2020 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by skitheo skitheo wrote:

Originally posted by PA23 PA23 wrote:

The Avidyne however has a very clever undocumented command that allows you to set the WiFi channel.  Simply change the SSID to be whatever you want and put the number 1, 6, or 11 at the end, for example the default LIO_WIFI, change it to LIO_WIFI6 and the IFD will use channel 6 and the SSID will show up as LIO_WIFI6.



I too have an IFD (540) and NGT-9000. I have frequent dropouts on the NGT-9000 data feed to the tablet. I have to suspect that some of it may be due to interference. Thanks to your great info, I'm going to re-configure the WiFi on the IFD and hope the makes the feed more stable.

THANK YOU!


I have configured the IFD as @PA23 has described and can confirm that it does indeed change the channel used by the IFD to channel 6. THANK YOU!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Capt.Caveman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2020 at 6:56pm
Ok...Since i know next to nothing on computers...where do i change the SSID number

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PA23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2020 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by Capt.Caveman Capt.Caveman wrote:

Ok...Since i know next to nothing on computers...where do i change the SSID number



See page 6-70 of the Current IFD4xx Pilot's Guide, I'm sure its in the IFD5xx manual as well probably in the same basic area.

I would suggest you not change your SSID unless you need to for some reason.

Jeff
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