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PAPR GeoAlt missing element (IFD 440/AXP 340)

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ansond View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ansond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: PAPR GeoAlt missing element (IFD 440/AXP 340)
    Posted: 13 Oct 2019 at 8:07pm
In looking more into why I keep getting the "No TIS-B" annunciation on my dual IFD440's, I ran another papr report today after the flight... everything looked perfect with one exception - I had a different "missing element" report for GeoAlt: % fail was 0.09%, max DT was 00:00:01, MCF was 1... the column was not highlighted as a critical error or anything as such.

Could this missing element be causing TIS-B to drop out?  Wondering if this is a bug in 10.2.3.1 as I have not seen this prior to the update (... and yes, we got a 100% conformance report when we upgraded my IFDs to 10.2.3.1... went perfectly).  GPS lock today was excellent - SBAS precision on both units... never blinked... 

Anyone else seeing this?

Thanks,

Doug

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 9:00am
What unit do you use for an ADS-B In source?
Steve Lindsley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cruiser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 9:17am
getting the same problem on my IFD540/Aspen PFD/MFD. The ADS-B traffic is supplied by the Garmin GTX345 over ARNIC 429 to both IFD540 and Aspen PFD/MFD and they both go off at the same time and come back at the same time. 
Can it be something sent from/missing in the Garmin GTX345 ? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teeth6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 10:47am
I use the Skytrax for my ADSB-IN.   I've come to just ignore the "NO TIS-B" symbol on the units but I'd guess it's there about 90% of the time.  Only rarely does it disappear for brief periods.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 10:53am
Do you have the 100A or 100B model Skytrax?  I'm trying to find out if this indication is peculiar to a given make/model of ADS-B in source.
Steve Lindsley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teeth6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 12:03pm
How can I tell which I have?  I do remember mine was updated at one point so I assume it is the most recent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ansond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 12:15pm
I have the original Skytrax100 Steve... "A" I believe... 

My IFD#2 sends its GPS data to my Skytrax. I have serial and arinc back to my IFD for "IN" display (the serial one is active, the arinc is off... I have the type of the serial port set to SkytraxWx+Trfc).  I use crossfill to get the "IN" data up to GPS1. My MFD can/could see the "IN" via its arinc channel (I assume this will be what I turn on when I go to 8.2.2 on the MFD... I'm at 8.2.1 currently). 

Everything works great... its just the annunciation for some reason that is prevalent now.  I can turn off the tis-b annunciation in the setup to make it go away... mostly curious if others are seeing and if its a problem or not a big concern. 

Doug


Edited by ansond - 14 Oct 2019 at 12:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HenryM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 12:42pm
I noticed the last flights this weekend that the no TIS-B symbol was on the whole time flying from KAUS to KGYI, around the Dallas Class B space. I have an IFD540, AXP340 and original (non-B) MLB/SkyTrax100. 

I did have traffic displayed, including some airlines, which I assume use 1090ES. I don't have a dual band receiver, so traffic had to be coming from the towers. I also had a couple of targets without a tail number, which must have been Mode C targets. 

Another strange thing is that traffic displayed on Foreflight was not consistent with what the IFD540 showed. Some targets showed up on one display, but not the other. I couldn't figure out a pattern.

There was not a large amount of traffic displayed, so I don't think there was any data overload. Weather seemed to be coming through.

I just sent out for a PAPR report, and everything looked OK. 0% failures, except Geo Alt said 0.02%, Max dT 00:00:01, MCF 1, but the error wasn't highlighted so apparently OK.


Edited by HenryM - 14 Oct 2019 at 12:45pm
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ansond View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ansond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 1:51pm
Interesting... your GeoAlt also had a non-zero error value... as with yours, my PAPR report didn't highlight the error as a problem... so I'm just not sure if it plays a role in the TIS-B annunciation or not... glad to hear though that your experience is pretty much consistent with mine... 

For the most part, I see the same traffic targets on my IFDs that I see via Foreflight and Stratus 2s... on occasion one display may have more or less targets than the other... but there does not seem to be a consistent pattern either way... seems to work pretty well. Very rarely, I make a visual on a target that I don't have/see on either/both of those displays... its very rare though... so that's good as it gives me some consistency and confidence in the system and its function. 

Doug
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teeth6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2019 at 2:04pm
Log book doesn’t say if it’s A or B but if it helps, the SN is 15350053
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cruiser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2019 at 8:18am
Steve, I have the Garmin GTX 345 source and it happens to me all the time. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2019 at 9:30am
Originally posted by teeth6 teeth6 wrote:

How can I tell which I have?  I do remember mine was updated at one point so I assume it is the most recent.
If your box has a part number starting with 200, it's not a SkyTrax100B.
Steve Lindsley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2019 at 9:32am
Originally posted by Cruiser Cruiser wrote:

Steve, I have the Garmin GTX 345 source and it happens to me all the time. 
Shucks, I was hoping everyone with the no TIS-B indication would have the same ADS-B in source.  Good to know, though, thanks for reporting that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rocket Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2019 at 4:16pm
Happens all the time in my IFD 440 with a Garmin GTX 345 source.  IFD software 10.2.3.1
Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ansond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2019 at 12:25am
FYI, happened to me today again... short hop from KHYI to KHYI at 3500 ft... flightaware saw me as ADS-B the entire time... my PAPR report was perfect (no errors whatsoever). "No TIS-B" was annunciated for the entire flight. Got lots of traffic though and also seemed to be in sync with traffic seen on my Stratus 2s... 

I downloaded all of my IFD logs (one that is attached to the Skytrax and has the Serial input from the Skytrax)... would it be of benefit if someone from Avidyne support had a look at those logs to at least diagnose why the "no TIS-B" flag is showing? Is there a way to determine what is causing the "No TIS-B" annunciation to display?

Thanks,

Doug 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2019 at 1:40pm

On the Operation Summary (page 2) of your PAPR report, do the Out Capability and In Capability fields read 1090 and UAT respectively? What is the percentage listed for the TIS-B Client? The TIS-B Client lists the percentage of time TIS-B data was provided by the ADSB ground system.

I really haven't seen any change in the "No TIS-B" annunciation behavior since I originally upgraded to IFD software 10.2.0.0 (now using 10.2.3.1). The "No TIS-B" indication comes and goes inflight; sometimes it comes on for a few minutes, then disappears. A spot check of my PAPR reports show the TIS-B Client percent generally above 98% although two recent longer cross countries showed 81% and 92% for an out and back along very similar routing just hours apart. Even though most of my flights show a TIS-B Client percentage above 98%, I know my IFD's "No TIS-B" annunciation is generally well north of 2% of the time.

As I understand my similar setup, my aircraft’s triggered TIS-B is an ADSB ground system rebroadcast (UAT 978 frequency) of the proximate radar traffic that is not UAT ADSB-out equipped. It is also my understanding that my setup may also receive non-proximate TIS-B traffic because it may also receive the TIS-B traffic that is proximate to other ADSB-in equipped depending on their ADSB-out and ADSB-in equipment reporting in the general area.

Here are my system questions:

Is the TIS-B broadcast triggered by my aircraft transmitted by only the closest ADSB ground station or a few proximate ADSB ground stations?

Does the MLB100/SkyTrax100 receive and process TIS-B traffic from only one ADSB ground station at a time or does it receive and process TIS-B data from multiple ADSB ground stations at a time?

Similarly, will the IFD annunciate “No TIS-B” annunciation if it is not receiving TIS-B from the closest ADSB ground station or will it annunciate “No TIS-B” if the IFD is not receiving TIS-B from any ADSB ground stations?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ansond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2019 at 12:01am

Here is mine (above)... 0% on the TIS-B client... so it appears that its just not receiving any TIS-B information... any thoughts as to what this might be caused by?

Thanks!!

Doug
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2019 at 9:03am
From the Public ADS-B Performance Report (PAPR) User's Guide: TIS-B Client %: Percentage of operation time TIS-B data was provided to the aircraft by the ADS-B ground system. Since your Out Capability and In Capability reported by your ADS-B out 1090 transponder are listed correctly, it appears that for whatever reason (maybe an outage), your aircraft was not sent any TIS-B data on this flight.

As I understand the system, the MLB100 / SkyTrax100 is only a receiver; the PAPR only knows how much TIS-B data was sent from the ground stations, it has no information regarding how much TIS-B data was actually received by your aircraft.

Did you have any traffic show up on your IFD during your flight or taxi? If so, those would have been UAT-out equipped aircraft and I think that would have been confirmation that your onboard equipment was working properly. Since you indicated earlier that you're using the RS-232 SkytraxWx+Trfc protocol, I believe proper FIS-B data reception would also generally indicate that the system was working properly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ansond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2019 at 6:02pm
yep... IFDs had lots of traffic on both.. seemed to be working otherwise perfectly... I am guessing that something is sideways with the regional TIS-B service in my area... 

Doug
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2019 at 7:04pm
Yes, I agree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2019 at 1:53am
Here's some guidance and specific answers from our resident expert.

First off, just to clarify: TIS-B in this case is shorthand for TIS-B and ADS-R and No TIS-B is only an indication there is a possibility your traffic picture is incomplete.  

All groundstations broadcast a list of the aircraft for which they are currently providing TIS-B/ADS-R targets, if your ICAO doesn't show up in the list for more than a few tens of seconds, you will receive the No TIS-B indication.  Somewhat counter-intuitively, the "No TIS-B" indication has no relationship to the receipt of TIS-B or ADS-R targets.  You could be receiving tons of TIS-B targets while showing the "No TIS-B" indication and you could be receiving zero TIS-B targets and not see the message.  The message is completely driven by whether the IFD has received Service Status messages from the groundstations.

Originally posted by dmtidler dmtidler wrote:

Is the TIS-B broadcast triggered by my aircraft transmitted by only the closest ADSB ground station or a few proximate ADSB ground stations?

In general I believe the design intent when they were laying out the network was that the towers would be far enough apart that just one tower would be providing service for your hockey puck, but there could be times where multiple towers would be providing service for your aircraft as you transition between coverage areas.  In practice it seems receiving service from multiple towers is not terribly uncommon.

Regardless of whether you are receiving "service" from a given tower, you will still receive and display TIS-B/ADS-R data from any tower transmitting in the area.

Originally posted by dmtidler dmtidler wrote:

Does the MLB100/SkyTrax100 receive and process TIS-B traffic from only one ADSB ground station at a time or does it receive and process TIS-B data from multiple ADSB ground stations at a time?

All, regardless of service status or distance. 

Originally posted by dmtidler dmtidler wrote:

Similarly, will the IFD annunciate “No TIS-B” annunciation if it is not receiving TIS-B from the closest ADSB ground station or will it annunciate “No TIS-B” if the IFD is not receiving TIS-B from any ADSB ground stations?

You will only receive the annunciation if no groundstations have recently reported they are providing service to your hockey puck.  As long as 1 or more groundstations are reporting your aircraft as "in-service", you will not see the message.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dmtidler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2019 at 8:34am
Excellent information....Thanks Steve!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ansond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2019 at 10:14am
Wow! Thanks Steve!

So, my assumption is that the "No TIS-B" annunciations I am seeing are actually a ground station problem... should I somehow get this to the FAA?  Maybe I should inform one of the controllers next time I am doing some sunday flying in the Austin area:
  • I can see my full recorded track in flightware... so I am being seen
  • I get excellent kinematics from my PAPR report - so the system is definitely "seeing" me... its just not providing service to the puck I am in for some reason
  • FIS-B and ADS-R/traffic appears to be working normally (I see traffic...and weather...)  so my Skytrax is working normally... IFDs are working fine as well...  
Would it be possible to get access from Avidyne to the Skytrax100A/MLB100 Windows configuration application so I can double check my MLB100 configuration? 

Thanks again Steve,

Doug
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSteve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2019 at 10:27am
Originally posted by ansond ansond wrote:

So, my assumption is that the "No TIS-B" annunciations I am seeing are actually a ground station problem...
Another possibility is that there are more messages to be sent from the ADS-B in device to the IFD than there is available bandwidth on the interface.  If the ADS-B device manages the bandwidth by dropping Service Status messages, that would cause the dreaded No TIS-B indication.

Originally posted by ansond ansond wrote:

Would it be possible to get access from Avidyne to the Skytrax100A/MLB100 Windows configuration application so I can double check my MLB100 configuration?
Your installer should have that.  I'm not sure what the rules are regarding distribution of that tool.  I'd check with tech support for you, but I'm not in the office.  You'll get a quicker answer if you give them a call.


Edited by AviSteve - 23 Nov 2019 at 9:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ansond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2019 at 9:11pm
Just a quick update on this... in short... it was a FAA service issue and its been resolved.

After trying to find a reasonable email address in the FAA to send the issue details to, I managed to get through to those that are responsible for the ADS-B services.  I sent them my PAPR reports showing that I was getting a 0% TIS-B client service. 

After some digging and research on their side, they discovered that an update to the TIS-B service in my area (Austin TX), contained a bug that would send me my service volume traffic... but did not have a service status message associated with it... so, while I was in fact getting all the traffic, my IFD was telling me my TIS-B service was either non-existant OR it did not contain the appropriate service status message. Not sure but perhaps Avidyne should examine this case and add this to a potential fix in the future... (i.e. can you ignore the lack of a service status message if you are actually getting traffic?...)

The FAA fixed the service and created a checkpoint for future updates to ensure this doesn't happen again. 

On my flight today, I got full TIS-B service (94%) and my "no TIS-B" annunciation never popped up once I started flying and got to about 1800 ft... 

Doug
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ansond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2019 at 10:53pm
Well... FYI again... today (Sunday) it appears that the TIS-B service is acting up yet again... was working perfectly Saturday... not so much today... two flights and both had only 2.7% TIS-B client... will let my FAA contact know...

Doug
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flybuddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2019 at 2:55pm
"TIS" the season to "B" jolly!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ansond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2019 at 7:25pm
... one other quick update... so the FAA had an additional "tweak" they had to make regarding the automated maintenence mechanisms for the servers they use... it apparently had accidentally reverted the fixing change over the weekend. Apparently that's been addressed now so we should see some good stable TIS-B going forward in the Austin area... 

Today's flight was great - got TIS-B out of HYI and it was solid for the entire hop...

Doug
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