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Seattle Avionics Alternative to Jeppesen

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    Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 7:55pm
I'm requesting that all interested owners of Avidyne IFD units add to this post requesting that Avidyne take a renewed and concerted effort to get charts and data from Seattle Avionics. As background info, I have a relationship with some of the principal people at SA due to my beta testing with them for a couple years now. Today, I asked my contact to renew efforts to get approved as a data supplier to Avidyne IFD devices. His response was - 

"We're talking to Avidyne and hope to get something worked out.  They have a lot on their plate and this never seems to be top of their list.  Feel free to bug them as we're very happy to work with them."

Thanks to all who want a second source and who take the time to ask Avidyne to put this 'top of their list'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 9:10pm
I'm in!! Doesn't hurt my feelings to ditch Jeppesen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 9:49pm
Count me in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mccdeuce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 10:26pm
Do not like Jepp. Their product is sub par. Their website is from the 90s.

We need competition. Just like what Avidyne did to the GPS market we need Avidyne to allow Seattle Avionics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LANCE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2017 at 11:54pm
This subject has been beaten to death over and over. The units we bought use Jeppesen data. We were aware of that at the time of purchase. Would it be nice if the data cost less? Sure, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MysticCobra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 7:29am
Not a fan of Jepp.  Would like to see an option for data source.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 9:08am
I would love to see this become viable option for us. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 9:47am
Much prefer Jepp plates, especially for non-US use.

As far as data, well navdata is navdata, but I've seen some folks that have had real problems with SA update procedures.

Of course a choice could be offered, but integration would require significant work I expect, and resources might be better spent elsewhere.

* Orest

Edited by oskrypuch - 21 Sep 2017 at 9:54am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AzAv8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 10:18am
I'm waiting for Seattle Avionics Data.   When I bought my IFD at Osh 2011, I specifically asked about alternative data sources before I gave them my credit card, and was told essentially "initially Jepp only, but another source was expected once one was viable."

Seattle Avionics is viable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote comancheguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 12:13pm
My wish list:

1)   Private airports in the database
2)   G5 support
3)   Competition for Jepp
4)   Moving radar shots - looping to show movement



Edited by comancheguy - 21 Sep 2017 at 12:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cruiser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 3:23pm

I am a Seattle Avionics customer, I want SA to provide database data for my IFD540/440 GPS requirements


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pburger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 11:43pm
I live at a private airport and it is in the database.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobsV35B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 9:57am
We also live at a private airport. (LL22) It IS in the Jeppesen, Avidyne, and ForeFlight databases.

Happy Skies,

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Freff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 4:12pm
The one thing that I really don't like about my IFD is Jeppesen.   Every year when my renewal comes up I think about selling my IFD and replacing it.   But if Avidyne offered an alternative to Jeppesen I don't know why anyone would buy an alternative product to the IFD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobsV35B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 5:46pm
Old Bob, Ancient Aviator
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobsV35B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 5:50pm
Good Afternoon Freff.

I guess the point is that we tend to get to like what we know. Having used Jeppesen since 1951, I am just used to it. I DO agree it is overpriced, but I sure prefer the product to any other mapping data function.

Happy Skies,

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skitheo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2017 at 5:55pm
Count me as someone who would strongly prefer an option to subscribe to someone _other than_ Jeppesen supplying data for my IFD540. If it's SA, then great. 

Unlike Orest, I do not use plates on the IFD540. I prefer to display them on something else, i.e. tablet, paper, etc. Only occasionally to I pull up an airport diagram on the IFD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nrproces Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2017 at 7:58am
Me too!

I am a Seattle Avionics customer and beta tester, I want SA to provide database data for my IFD540/440 GPS requirements. Their product support is a magnitude above the "George Jepsen's" and you don't need the treadmill that the Jep website insists on.

Sauce
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2017 at 9:40pm
According to the Seattle Avionics website a US IFR ChartData subscription for a KSN 770 is $299.  A European subscription is $649.  And Australia is $349.

I don't quite understand Garmin's pricing but from what I've seen their charts are cheaper than Jepp's.

Of the three aviation GPS manufacturers only Avidyne doesn't offer a lower cost alternative to Jeppesen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2017 at 9:34am
I talked to Seattle avionics over a year ago.  At that time they were ready and willing to go ahead and begin the work.  They were just waiting for the go ahead from Avidyne.  I do know that there is a fair amount of testing Avidyne would have to perform to validate that the nav data in the IFD platform.  I would hope that most of the testing could be done in the lab with just a small subset validated in flight.  I just cant see the business case for Avidyne to put the effort in.  I hope I'm wrong and there is a business case. 

Simpson if your reading these, please give us a second source for Nav data.  Charts will always  be more cost effective on foreflight.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 2017 at 9:30pm
I'm sure there is a business case for less expensive charts and plates.  How about this one:

The Dynon Certified Skyview HDX panels are a disruptor if not a game changer for glass panels.  But they don't include a GPS.  How about a package with a Dynon panel and an IFD 440 with a Seattle Avionics data bundle?  This could be very appealing to flight schools as a way to offer a TAA at a cost much less than that of a G-1000 equipped 172SP.  It would definitely be to Avidyne's advantage to have students learning on an IFD rather than a GTN or GNS.

Or this one:

There are may legacy aircraft pilots who occasionally fly in benign IFR and who would really like to have a panel IFR so they can file /G and fly WAAS approaches.  When they decide to make the big investment they look at the Garmin 650 and the Avidyne 440.  Being able to advertise "Charts, all you need for legal IFR - $299 per year or $1495 lifetime" may swing the decision of someone who has been saving for years or has taken out a loan for this purchase.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n7ifr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 12:12am
Nice thread - Great minds think alike.

No surprise so many SA subscribers also have Avidyne product in their panels.  
SA instrument plate subscriptions would give Avidyne a great competitive edge over G-----, offering an alternative for IAP's.

Seattle Avionics is one of the few vendors that has already made its iPad App (FlyQ) fully Avidyne WiFi-ADSB and Flight Plan compatible!!

Avidyne - why not give Jepp some competition - Seattle Avionics will be a breath of fresh air for our 540 and 550's and allow us to use the NACO plates we love at a fraction of the Jepp cost!!!

Tom W.
  


Edited by n7ifr - 26 Sep 2017 at 12:15am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ksdoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2017 at 12:25pm
I've been a Jepp user with my Avidyne products for years. The Jepp manager on my Mac works great with not only the 440 but the old Garmin GMX200 and the Aspen data. 

I tried the trial subscription for SA on the Aspen 2500, but stopped using it after the first attempt. Just a terrible interface and download. I don't know if that is unique to Mac, but it was so bad I would not waste my time even if the data for the 440 or Aspen was available and cheaper. Plus, the chart subscription does not even include airport diagrams for my home base (KPAN) or for Pagosa. I understand it is only for the larger airports. Unless SA improves the download manager for Mac, I'm happy to stay with Jepp, though I accept I'm paying more for the data. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n7ifr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2017 at 12:46pm
Larry,

There have been many complaints about the Mac-SA interface for downloading Aspen chart data, but.
the PC interface works very well, albeit a bit slower than the Jepp interface.

In all fairness, I believe the issue to have SA be a Chart Provider (or not) for Avidyne is not related to the 540/440 Nav-Data, just approach Charts (not available on the 440).  Agree, not sure why the Aspen-SA database doesn't have the Airport diagrams for KPSO or KPAN, and why their iPad App (FlyQ) does have all airports (just like FF)... not sure why the difference.  

BTW, how's the hangar search?

Tom W.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ksdoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2017 at 1:53pm
Tom,

PM sent
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TurboPA30 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 2:58am
My 3 IFD 540, the EX600 and EX5000 all would be on a Seattle Avionics Subscription if that happens.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote n7ifr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2017 at 10:22am
Larry, thanks for the PM.

Emailed with Steve P. @ SA about the "disconnect" with lack of Airport Diagrams on Aspen DB compared with SA's FlyQ DB - The Aspen DB including the Nav-Data is directly from FAA and distributed by Jeppesen ($), and SA is not in that loop.  SA provides the Aspen Approach Charts only.

We can only hope Avidyne is aware of this large interest group to have SA as a competetive supplier for our 540/550 Charts and Airport Diagrams.

Tom W.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skitheo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2017 at 9:49pm
There are quite a few of us asking, but I haven't seen any response from AviSimpson, nor anyone else from Avidyne. What should we infer from that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2017 at 7:40am
It ain’t gonna happen?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2017 at 7:45am
I concur
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jwjenks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 10:37am
I asked Avidyne at Oshkosh when they would start accepting other (SA) databases.  They would not give me an answer.  SA told me at Oshkosh their subscription for charts and Nav would be less than $200/yr.   My friends private airport, DE25, is not in Jeppesen but is in SA.
Not only that but I do a lot of NYC work,  127.85 is listed as a LGA frequency, it is actually a Newark frequency.  I called Jepp to point out the error, they said they wouldn't change it.
Another pilot, does 15hrs training per wk, at my airport who just got his first GPS (G700) said if Avidyne had SA charts he would have got an IFD 540 if subscription costs were $200/yr  that I told him about. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote M20Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 5:44pm
What I know is that competition keeps the costs in line for everyone.  Left to their own devices Jeppesen will always charge a kings ransom for their products.  If we can get SA as an additional approved supplier for the 440/540 line, then we can all make the choice that fits our needs and budgets the best.  Some will surely stay with Jeppesen, but other (like me) would jump the Jeppesen ship in a heartbeat if SA data were available.

I spoke with one of the Avidyne reps at Oshkosh and mentioned that 9 years of Jeppesen data equaled the initial purchase price of the 540.  How many people do you suspect do the math and refuse to buy a 540 due to the ongoing cost of data?  How many additional units could Avidyne sell if they just had a more reasonable data supplier?  I don't know the answers but I'm sure they have lost business because of their inability to use more economical data.

Let's push to make this happen!


Edited by M20Kid - 11 Oct 2017 at 5:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FlyingCOham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 7:08pm
"they said they wouldn't change it."  Interesting.  Several years ago I found a similar error (freq in wrong place) and called Jepp about it.  The person that took the call put me through to a specialist who agreed and promised it would be addressed.  It took several cycles but it was fixed.  Some people care and some just don't. ( : < ) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 7:20pm
Jepp is very interested in the accuracy of their data, and in my experience do solicit and investigate corrections offered.

It is also fairly easy to add private airports (recent topic), that may not be in the database, you just call them with the details.

* Orest
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 8:33pm
Mark me down for jumping off the Jeppesen ship the second the opportunity comes available.
Through the years I’ve given them a King's ransom not to mention the time I spent in those leather binders!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2017 at 9:34am

I'm guessing there must be a business arrangement that was made early on in the development that Avidyne can't get out of.  Something like Jepp invested their own Funds for the DO-200 cert on this platform.  I have no way of knowing, just speculating.    The silence is telling.  Kinda made a deal with the devil. 

If the interface is truly open, then there is nothing stopping SA from taking on a cert of there own.



Edited by tony - 12 Oct 2017 at 9:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSimpson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2017 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by skitheo skitheo wrote:

There are quite a few of us asking, but I haven't seen any response from AviSimpson, nor anyone else from Avidyne. What should we infer from that?

We are listening and this topic is nothing new. We have had numerous conversations in the past and in the last 6 months with Seattle Avionics about providing data to the IFDs. Out of those discussions, we identified many hurdles that would need to be addressed in order for their chart data to be implemented on the IFDs. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tony Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 9:09am
Originally posted by AviSimpson AviSimpson wrote:

Originally posted by skitheo skitheo wrote:

There are quite a few of us asking, but I haven't seen any response from AviSimpson, nor anyone else from Avidyne. What should we infer from that?

We are listening and this topic is nothing new. We have had numerous conversations in the past and in the last 6 months with Seattle Avionics about providing data to the IFDs. Out of those discussions, we identified many hurdles that would need to be addressed in order for their chart data to be implemented on the IFDs. 


Thank you Simpson for the response.  Is the same true for the Nav data?  I'm not interested in the charts, and I would guess others feel the same as I do.  The charts on Foreflight are just find for me. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 94S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 9:18am
[/QUOTE]

Thank you Simpson for the response.  Is the same true for the Nav data?  I'm not interested in the charts, and I would guess others feel the same as I do.  The charts on Foreflight are just find for me. 

[/QUOTE]

I also am only interested in the nav data.  I get my charts from SA's FlyQ app.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSimpson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 9:32am
They do not provide certified navigation data.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AzAv8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 10:05am
In the US, *all* approved navigation data (and chart data) comes from the same source:  the FAA. Jepp gets it there, as does Seattle Avionics, as does Foreflight,as does Avare (an open-source and free Android app), as does SkyVector.com .

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/aero_data/

Charts are here:
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/

You can submit chart changes here:
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/aero_data/Airport_Data_Changes_Public/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cruiser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 7:16pm
To process FAA approved NavData the supplier must obtain a LOA (Letter of Approval) stating they comply with RTCA DO-200A

I have no idea what that means but I suspect Seattle Avionics does not have one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flying_Monkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 hours 26 minutes ago at 7:34pm
Why doesn't Avidyne do this themselves? I wish I understood more about the complexity of the nav data.  I know this sounds super ignorant (which is why I sincerely wish to learn more) but it seems like the FAA provides the FREE certified nav data to everyone.  What is so difficult in re-formatting for a particular piece of hardware to use?  I just don't get why it's so expensive when the FAA seems to be doing all the legwork in creating the data in the first place!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 hours 47 minutes ago at 10:13pm
Check out Advisory Circular 20-153A. It describes what the FAA requires for a company to get approved as a data supplier. The process doesn't look very easy to me. It's not something that Avidyne or anyone else can do in their spare time.

Jeppesen's expertise is getting stuff like this done. Avidyne's isn't.

Mike
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MysticCobra View Drop Down
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Joined: 29 Jan 2013
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MysticCobra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 hours 46 minutes ago at 10:14pm
Plus, it would be a never-ending revenue stream after the initial hardware sale.  What business wouldn't want that?

Edited by MysticCobra - 20 hours 45 minutes ago at 10:15pm
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