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B2C2 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B2C2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: SID question
    Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 6:48pm
I have a question regarding SIDs and the IFD that seems like its behaving oddly, but perhaps its by design. I was flying from KANE to KCPR and was cleared via the Darwin 4 SID, departing RWY 18. According to the plate I should fly vectors to MSP, then MSP->INUNE->DWN thence on route. When I select the SID for KANE it inserts the above waypoints in the flight plan, but they are not visible on the map. Also If I select MSP in the flight plan and attempt to go direct to MSP, it inserts a new waypoint for  MSP after the waypoints for the SID in the FMS. Kind of weird. Is this expected or am I doing something incorrectly?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teeth6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 9:53pm
I tried that on the sim and did not see what you describe.  I agree the waypoints in the SID do not show on the map but when I entered Direct MSP, it took me direct to the MSP already in the SID.  Did you highlight the MSP that was on the FMS page and hit Direct?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ibraham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2016 at 10:29pm
I tried the same clearance on the IFD PC simulator.
On FMS,  I entered KANE (RWY 18 DWN6 ) KCPR,  all the SID waypoints appeared on the FMS
After Departure, while being vectored to MSP, if instructed to go direct MSP, select MSP on the flight plan and push "Activate Leg", it will activate Direct to MSP. 
If vectored to MSP and directed to proceed on course, then select INUNE and Activate leg, it will fly or intercept the leg from MSP to INUNE
I hope the actual unit behaves the same like the simulator

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B2C2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2016 at 1:09am
 I figured out on the Sim that if you set KANE as the origin, then select the SID, it works as you describe. But if you enter KANE as the origin, then set KCPR as the next waypoint (or DWN for that matter) . Then go back to KANE and select the Darwin 4 departure procedure. It behaves as I described. I think this is a bug. But perhaps AviSimpson will explain why it behaves this way. If you were to enter the route as filed prior to getting your clearance not expecting the SID, then have to add it before departure this would cause a problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B2C2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2016 at 3:47pm
I also see with the Sim that if I add the SID after setting the origin, then set KCPR as the next way point, then delete the SID and re-add the DWN4 or another SID it also behaves as I originally described, so if for some reason the DP were to change after entry that also doesn't work. I am used to the FMS behaving very smoothly with respect to things like approach procedure changes so this doesn't seem correct. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSimpson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2016 at 12:14pm
I tried the scenario in our lab, which has a current database and, therefore, the SID is now Darwin 6.  Nevertheless, the waypoints appeared to be the same as you posted.  I then used our PC sim to do the same thing so that I could easily take the screenshots below.

First, I entered KANE as the origin, then waypoint KCPR.  Then, I went back to the departure field in the origin and selected DWN6 with the RW18 transition.  At that point, the screen shows as follows:


  I then activated the flight plan and got the following:


Once cleared to MSP, you would just move the cursor to the MSP leg, press Direct-To, then ENTR twice to confirm it.  At that point, you get the flight plan as shown below.  The map presentation would vary based on the aircraft position at the time you were cleared direct to MSP.


Here I scrolled down just so you could see the end of the flight plan.


As you can see from the screenshots, the map always showed the legs in the SID and there were no discontinuities after MSP (or anywhere else for that matter).  So, I'm not sure exactly what steps you are taking that cause the behavior that you have described.  Can you compare your steps to the ones that were outlined here and report any differences?

Simpson Bennett
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2016 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by B2C2 B2C2 wrote:

I have a question regarding SIDs and the IFD that seems like its behaving oddly....Darwin 4 SID,

Is your database up to date?

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidBunin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2016 at 7:04am
Originally posted by B2C2 B2C2 wrote:

When I select the SID for KANE it inserts the above waypoints in the flight plan, but they are not visible on the map.


Did you tell the IFD that you were departing from runway 18?  Sometimes SID procedures differ depending on the runway used for departure, so the IFD won't display the procedure until you tell it all of the information it needs to define the procedure.

I think there is also some trick or magic about entering the departing runway BEFORE you add the departure procedure to the flight plan.

David Bunin

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B2C2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2016 at 5:43pm
So I did some more testing on this. Here's what I found

 1. I tried this in the airplane. Set origin KANE set destination KCPR then set DP to Darwin6 (my database is up to date) This worked properly. The map showed the waypoints and I was able to set MSP direct within the SID. It did not create another copy of MSP after the procedure when I did this. I could also select MSP and select "activate leg". This also made MSP the next waypoint within the SID. So it looks like the box is working as I would expect. 

 2.  I tried this on my iPad, which is where I see the Darwin 4 SID due to an older database and where I have been doing all of my testing. This does exactly as I described. You will see this if you do the following. Enter KANE as the origin. Enter KCPR as the next waypoint. Go back to KANE and set the DP to Darwin4. You should see that KCPR is still the active next waypoint (magenta) with a white course line starting at DWN and going to ABR before going to KCPR. 

 At this point I also do not get a button that says "activate flight plan". Im not sure why.

 If you try selecting MSP in the SID and activating direct, it will create another MSP waypoint after the SID but before KCPR with a "gap in route" between MSP and KCPR. 

 If however you select MSP and then select "activate leg" the map now shows all the waypoints properly and the next waypoint is MSP within the SID. In the airplane, either Direct, or "activate Leg" with MSP highlighted does the same thing. Not so here.

 3. I tried this on the IFD 540 (not IFD 550) PC sim. With the exception that it has the Darwin 6 departure, it also acts like the iPad simulator. 

 Adding the runway doesn't fix it. Thanks for making the suggestion. It just inserts another waypoint to fly runway heading. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AviSimpson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2016 at 12:20pm
Glad it works as expected in the airplane.  The iPad and PC simulations always assume that the aircraft is airborne.  Since the FMS will automatically activate a flight plan when the aircraft is airborne, you'll never see the "Activate Flight Plan" button.

I executed the steps that you described on the iPad and was able to reproduce the map artifacts that you described.  When you inserted the SID prior to the active leg, you changed the definition of the active leg to go from ABR to KCPR.  The map generally starts drawing with the leg immediately preceding the active leg.  So, you only see the leg from DWN to ABR, then the active leg to KCPR.

I was unable, though, to get a discontinuity by selecting the SID leg to MSP and doing a direct-to.  There are actually two kinds of direct-to - termed "on-path" and "off-path".  The difference is that an on-path direct-to is a waypoint that is already a part of your flight plan (but there are rules) and an off-path direct-to is an unplanned waypoint.  If you do an on-path direct-to, no discontinuity will be inserted.  For an off-path direct-to, a new waypoint will be inserted before the active leg and a discontinuity is inserted after that.  The theory is that by doing an off-path direct-to, the pilot is telling the FMS where he wants to go, but not what to do when he gets there - thus the discontinuity.  It's literally an interruption in the flight plan.

Here's where the on-path rules come in.  If you select a waypoint using the cursor and then press direct-to, you'll get an on-path direct-to and the leg surrounded by the cursor will become active.  If you press direct-to and start entering an identifier, the system initially assumes you're trying to do an off-path direct-to, but it will search down the path from the active leg for a leg that terminates at the entered identifier.  If it finds one, the direct-to will be on-path and that particular leg will become active (as a direct-to).  Otherwise, it's off-path and you get the new waypoint followed by a discontinuity.  Notice, however, that the rule is to search *down path*.  Therefore, legs before the active leg are not included in the search.  There are a few reasons for this rule, but primarily it's because the FMS assumes that the primary goal is to reach your destination rather than backtrack.

Is there any chance that you manually entered MSP in the direct-to dialog box versus just moving the cursor to the MSP leg and pressing direct-to followed by two ENTR buttons?  That's the only way I could induce the behavior.

Simpson Bennett
Avidyne Corporation
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2016 at 2:11pm
Great detailed explanation.

* Orest

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B2C2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2016 at 3:57pm

Hi

This makes sense. I was suspicious that it had something to do with plane being in flight in the simulator. I tried setting the airspeed to zero in some of my tests but that didn't change the behavior.

In regards to your question the only way I entered MSP as a waypoint in all tests was by highlighting the waypoint in the flight plan and pressing direct->enter->enter.



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