Missing Approaches?

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   So, on a type specific board we are arguing the substitution of WAAS for various hardware as a person wants to buy a DME for their plane.

Then of course there's that one odd approach... As I was not sure how the IFD540 would prompt you from FAF inbound on the arc.  I tried to load it in the IFD540 sim and was surprised it wasn't there.

Airport: KMTN
Approach: VOR/DME or TACAN Z RWY 15
URL: http://airnav.com/depart?http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1413/05222VDTZ15.PDF

Maybe this was discussed in some previous thread that I glossed over, but I am wondering why it's not available in the database.

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roltman Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 04 Aug 2011 Status: Offline Points: 173	Post Options Post Reply Quote roltman Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Missing Approaches? Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 6:23pm
	So, on a type specific board we are arguing the substitution of WAAS for various hardware as a person wants to buy a DME for their plane. Then of course there's that one odd approach... As I was not sure how the IFD540 would prompt you from FAF inbound on the arc. I tried to load it in the IFD540 sim and was surprised it wasn't there. Airport: KMTN Approach: VOR/DME or TACAN Z RWY 15 URL: http://airnav.com/depart?http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1413/05222VDTZ15.PDF Maybe this was discussed in some previous thread that I glossed over, but I am wondering why it's not available in the database.

tony Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 06 Dec 2011 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 466	Post Options Post Reply Quote tony Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 8:19pm
	I think you are allow to use substitute WAAS GPS enroute, but not in the terminal area. Since the IFD540 doesn't have the equipment, I would not expect it to be in the database. http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/FAA-H-8083-15B.pdf reference page 9-27, look at number 7 under GPS substitution for ADF or DME

MysticCobra Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 29 Jan 2013 Status: Offline Points: 666	Post Options Post Reply Quote MysticCobra Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 8:36pm
	There are plenty of VOR, ILS, etc. approaches in my GNS430 that, when you pull them up, give you a warning that "you can't legally use GPS to fly this approach...load it anyway?" The IFDs similarly advise you "GPS Overlay Not Authorized" if you load an approach that's not valid for GPS, like an ILS. Not sure it's as simple as, "If it's not legal to fly with GPS, it's not in the database."

tony Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 06 Dec 2011 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 466	Post Options Post Reply Quote tony Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 9:01pm
	Just because Garmin does something, doesn't make it the correct thing to do. Why would you want to clutter up(add confusion) to the database with something your not suppose to use, especially when there is an RNAV (GPS) approach to the same runway? I think you're just helping someone make a mistake. Mystic, why would you want to see it? help me understand....

brou0040 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 13 Dec 2012 Location: KIYK Status: Offline Points: 722	Post Options Post Reply Quote brou0040 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 9:10pm
	You could still show the arc with a GPS not authorized alert and use it for situational awareness. The 540 doesn't know that you don't have a DME installed and aren't legally flying the approach. There could be an example where the VOR/DME approach has lower minimums than the RNAV approach making this a perfectly acceptable thing to request the 540 to do. I would assume the 540 would be in VLOC mode so there is no primary guidance via the HSI/CDI.

MysticCobra Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 29 Jan 2013 Status: Offline Points: 666	Post Options Post Reply Quote MysticCobra Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 10:41pm
	tony, It's not just Garmin. As I mentioned, the IFD's already have similar behavior for non-GPS approaches, with a cyan alert box in the lower-right corner saying "GPS Overlay Not Authorized". So your "clutter" is already present. Now the question is, do you want consistency (all non-GPS approaches are in the database) or inconsistency (some are, some aren't)? I would like it there for the same reason that lots of people fly with iPads and Android tablets and georeferenced charts: Additional situational awareness. Hopefully, no one is flying the georef chart on their portable instead of the ILS or VOR needles. But it's nice to see that when the two VOR needles go vertical, the GPS is also showing you over the intersection the VOR radials define. Nothing wrong with that. Edited by MysticCobra - 06 Jan 2015 at 10:43pm

oskrypuch Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 09 Nov 2012 Location: CYFD Status: Offline Points: 3061	Post Options Post Reply Quote oskrypuch Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 Jan 2015 at 10:46pm
	And, actually you may substitute for DME and other approach waypoints (eg. step down fixes) with GPS. What you are not allowed to do is to fly an approach, inside the FAF, unless you have the equipment specified in the approach name, and are monitoring it. For example for a VOR approach (with no GPS overlay) you must have a VOR on board to fly it. Now, there is nothing stopping you from also monitoring a GPS position source for orientation, or even having it drive the autopilot, as long as you are monitoring the primary navaid. The 540 obviously has VLOC available, so there is no reason it should restrict VOR approaches. And for that matter, the 540 cannot have any knowledge of whether you have an ADF on board, no reason to restrict chart access to these either. And, no ILS/LOC approach can ever have an overlay (a TERPS issue), and surely there is no reason to restrict chart or nav guide access for these either. * Orest Edited by oskrypuch - 06 Jan 2015 at 10:50pm

AviJake Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815	Post Options Post Reply Quote AviJake Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 Jan 2015 at 4:27am
	We suspect it's not included because there is a rule saying that a VOR/DME final approach coding must be acccomplished using IF, TF, or CF legs only. Since the final approach for the VOR/DME 15 is an arc (AF) leg, the approach cannot be coded. We're checking with Jepp to confirm that suspicion why it is not in the database.
	Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com

AviJake Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815	Post Options Post Reply Quote AviJake Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 Jan 2015 at 3:10pm
	We heard back from Jepp tech support and the reason that we suspected is indeed correct. BTW, the posts don't say this directly but there seems to be an assumption that the approach is contained in the Garmin units. We checked both the 530 sim and the GTN sim and neither of them have that particular approach either - which makes sense since their database is ARINC-424 as well.
	Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com

pburger Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 406	Post Options Post Reply Quote pburger Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 Jan 2015 at 4:01pm
	I have an issue with another missing approach. I plan to chase this down with Jeppesen, but wanted to check with Steve on the possibility that this may be an Avidyne thing. Here's the situation: My home airport has two private instrument approaches. We've had one approach for many years, and we just got a second approach, which is supposed to be in the 1501 database. The new approach is in the Garmin database as confirmed by my neighbor, but it is NOT showing up in the Avidyne. Airport TS07 RNAV 18 (LP) in both Garmin and Avidyne RNAV 36 (LNAV) in Garmin as of this database cycle, but NOT in Avidyne Before we start hammering Jepp, I thought I would check to see if there would be any reason that the approach may not show up in the Avidyne system. The database won't actually be in effect until January 8. Would/could that have something to do with it? I suspect not. I think Jepp dropped the ball. Steve - based on what I am describing here, is there any chance that this could be an Avidyne issue? By the way, the plate won't be there because it is a private approach, and we control the distribution of the plate. The approach data should be there, though -- we have paid Jepp for that. Edited by pburger - 07 Jan 2015 at 4:02pm

AviJake Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815	Post Options Post Reply Quote AviJake Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 Jan 2015 at 4:04pm
	Standby. Checking....
	Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com

AviJake Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Location: Lincoln MA Status: Offline Points: 2815	Post Options Post Reply Quote AviJake Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 Jan 2015 at 4:21pm
	Our guys checked and definitely not an Avidyne issue. We can confirm the RNAV36 is not in the 1501 database nor any dating back to July 2014. Looks like you should contact Jepp (navdatatechsupport@jeppesen.com or whatever contact you used who took your money).
	Steve Jacobson sjacobson@avidyne.com

pburger Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 406	Post Options Post Reply Quote pburger Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 07 Jan 2015 at 4:52pm
	Okay, thanks. The RNAV 36 is new. This is the first cycle it has been available. Jepp put it in the Garmin database, but somehow they left it out of the Avidyne. We'll pursue it with them.