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rolfe_tessem View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rolfe_tessem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Active Traffic
    Posted: 02 Feb 2020 at 10:15am
Can someone explain to me what hardware is required to enable what Avidyne is calling "Active Traffic" on the IFD?

Am I correct that this requires some version of the L3 NGT-9000?

Thanks,

Rolfe

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oskrypuch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2020 at 11:33am
An IFD does not itself capture active traffic. But it will display it, if there is a source for the data. Active traffic (vice ADS-B) involves pinging transponders in your area, just like ground secondary radar.

The Avidyne TAS6xx family would do that, as well as the upgraded versions of the Lynx.

* Orest


Edited by oskrypuch - 02 Feb 2020 at 11:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rolfe_tessem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2020 at 12:37pm
Thanks Orest -- I'm ready to pull the trigger on the Lynx solution and sell my 340. I had hoped that Freeflight would come through with a dual band ADSB IN solution, but it doesn't look as though that's happening.

Rolfe

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2020 at 1:42pm
Lynx provides a number of upgrades to the basic ES transponder. Nice, because you can get what functions you want. Also includes optional support for diversity antennas, which may become an issue in a number of locations in the world. All at a very competitive price.

The remote model of the Lynx unit is supported by the IFD, just like the Avi 322 remote.

* Orest


Edited by oskrypuch - 02 Feb 2020 at 1:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rolfe_tessem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2020 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by oskrypuch oskrypuch wrote:

Lynx provides a number of upgrades to the basic ES transponder. Nice, because you can get what functions you want. Also includes optional support for diversity antennas, which may become an issue in a number of locations in the world. All at a very competitive price.

The remote model of the Lynx unit is supported by the IFD, just like the Avi 322 remote.

* Orest


Yep, I see the TAS and TCAS options and I would probably go for the remote model myself...

I wonder why this isn't advertised more prominently?

Rolfe


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote afassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2020 at 10:20am
I have the Lynx NGT-9000+ (active traffic), in addition to my IFD-540.  Additionally, I have 2 Aspen screens, both unlocked for ADSB-IN for Lynx.

The Lynx shares its TIS (traffic information service) via a wired connection to the IFD and the Aspen screens.  Also, the IFD, as my Wi-Fi hub, shares all of the ADSB-In information it receives with my Foreflight iPad.

The real sweet part is that on a recent trip to the Bahamas, where there are NO ADSB towers or ADSB-In broadcast, I was still receiving "active traffic" locations from other transponder equipped aircraft.  The Lynx Active Traffic uses a special antenna and pings other aircraft transponders for location info. 
Alex Fassas
Avidyne IFD-540
Lynx NGT-9000+
Aspen PFD1000 & MFD500
Beech A36
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rolfe_tessem View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rolfe_tessem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2020 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by afassas afassas wrote:

I have the Lynx NGT-9000+ (active traffic), in addition to my IFD-540.  Additionally, I have 2 Aspen screens, both unlocked for ADSB-IN for Lynx.

The Lynx shares its TIS (traffic information service) via a wired connection to the IFD and the Aspen screens.  Also, the IFD, as my Wi-Fi hub, shares all of the ADSB-In information it receives with my Foreflight iPad.

The real sweet part is that on a recent trip to the Bahamas, where there are NO ADSB towers or ADSB-In broadcast, I was still receiving "active traffic" locations from other transponder equipped aircraft.  The Lynx Active Traffic uses a special antenna and pings other aircraft transponders for location info. 

Alex,

I see two active traffic options for the 9000+: One is TAS and the other (slightly more expensive option) is TCAS. Which one do you have and are you aware of any advantage to the full TCAS option?

Rolfe

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote afassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2020 at 3:03pm
Rolfe,
To my knowledge, the difference in TAS and TCAS is mostly with whether the traffic alert software meets the TSO standards.  TAS (Traffic Advisory System) under TSO C147 and TCAS (Traffic Collision Avoidance System) under TSO C118a.  TCAS is the standard that was required for certain classes of aircraft used in certain types of operations a few years ago.  Since I fly a Beechcraft A36 under FAA Part 91 operations, I am not required to have TCAS.  Here is a portion of the L-3 Lynx brochure regarding their TSO approvals:


The L-3 Lynx price list shows the price differences for the TAS and TCAS NGT-9000+ options.  You must also have a compatible antenna for the traffic.  I believe that if you had a TAS or TCAS system already installed, you may be able to reuse the antenna.  A link to the price list is here:

The L-3 Lynx Pilot Guide description of the TAS & TCAS are best reviewed on pages 1-4, 1-6, and 2-35 through 2-38.  The Pilot Guide is available here:

From my reading, it does not appear that TCAS is any more sensitive or wider range or additional aural callouts than TAS.  I am sure that someone will correct my understanding if it is incorrect.  A definitive answer would be to reach out to L-3 pre-sales support.
Alex Fassas
Avidyne IFD-540
Lynx NGT-9000+
Aspen PFD1000 & MFD500
Beech A36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rolfe_tessem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2020 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by afassas afassas wrote:

Rolfe,
To my knowledge, the difference in TAS and TCAS is mostly with whether the traffic alert software meets the TSO standards.  TAS (Traffic Advisory System) under TSO C147 and TCAS (Traffic Collision Avoidance System) under TSO C118a.  TCAS is the standard that was required for certain classes of aircraft used in certain types of operations a few years ago.  Since I fly a Beechcraft A36 under FAA Part 91 operations, I am not required to have TCAS.  Here is a portion of the L-3 Lynx brochure regarding their TSO approvals:


The L-3 Lynx price list shows the price differences for the TAS and TCAS NGT-9000+ options.  You must also have a compatible antenna for the traffic.  I believe that if you had a TAS or TCAS system already installed, you may be able to reuse the antenna.  A link to the price list is here:

The L-3 Lynx Pilot Guide description of the TAS & TCAS are best reviewed on pages 1-4, 1-6, and 2-35 through 2-38.  The Pilot Guide is available here:

From my reading, it does not appear that TCAS is any more sensitive or wider range or additional aural callouts than TAS.  I am sure that someone will correct my understanding if it is incorrect.  A definitive answer would be to reach out to L-3 pre-sales support.

Alex,

Thanks for the comprehensive response.

I'll be reaching out to L-3 ASAP.

Regards,

Rolfe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whiskykilo1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2020 at 9:36am
I want to speak again.

I think TCAS is an active system. The device radioed the other transponders in the area to ask them to send their information, just as it does radar.

TAS only listens in, so it only receives data from targets pinged by radar or a TCAS device.

With the NGT-9000+ you also need an additional antenna for TCAS for the upgrade, which makes the
conversion costs considerably more expensive.
EASA registered Beech Bonanza F33A located in EDKB Hangelar/Germany, Aspen 1000 EFD, 2 x IFD540
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rolfe_tessem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2020 at 9:59am
Originally posted by whiskykilo1 whiskykilo1 wrote:

I want to speak again.

I think TCAS is an active system. The device radioed the other transponders in the area to ask them to send their information, just as it does radar.

TAS only listens in, so it only receives data from targets pinged by radar or a TCAS device.

With the NGT-9000+ you also need an additional antenna for TCAS for the upgrade, which makes the
conversion costs considerably more expensive.


It appears from the Lynx information that TAS is also an active system, but uses a different antenna than TCAS. I am going to clarify with L3 today.

Rolfe

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oskrypuch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2020 at 12:45pm
TAS (or TCAS I), like the Avi TAS6xx or Lynx' variant, is an active system as well. It can provide traffic advisories (TA). I believe that TCAS I has additional certifications to simple TAS.

TCAS II, often just called TCAS, is an active system and can additionally provide resolution advisories (TA/RA).

* Orest


Edited by oskrypuch - 04 Feb 2020 at 12:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PA23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2020 at 9:44am
I too am curious as to the difference between TAS and TCAS.  The description in the Lynx pilot's guide for both TAS and TCAS systems on page 1-4 is identical with the exception of the software level required.

It looks like the Lynx supports TCAS I and some quick reading elsewhere leads me to believe that TCAS I just gives you traffic alerts (TA) but does not give you a resolution alert (RA), the RA would be the instruction to climb or descend and comes with TCAS II (or above?).

I found this article http://www.aeapilotsguide.net/pdf/05-06_Archive/TCASPG05.pdf that talks about the differences and truthfully I don't see that much of a difference between TAS and TCAS I, maybe it becomes a bigger issue as you move up in speed or maybe internationally?

I have the Lynx unit with only ATAS and my understanding is it is limited in that I cannot interrogate other aircraft but if they are ADS-B equipped or I'm receiving TIS-B data from a ground station the Lynx uses the exact same logic (from their traffic watch product) for generating a TA for ATAS as it does for TCAS or TAS.

The Lynx manual also says that the order or priority for traffic alerts is:  ADS-B in, ADS-R, TAS/TCAS, and last TIS-B (see page 2-30), and ATAS has priority over TAS/TCAS unless the traffic is only TIS-B then TAS/TCAS is used.

Jeff





Edited by PA23 - 05 Feb 2020 at 9:45am
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rolfe_tessem View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rolfe_tessem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2020 at 11:06am
I just spoke to L3 and clarified the differences between ATAS, TAS, and TCAS options with the Lynx.

As Orest pointed out, TAS and TCAS are functionally identical but meet different certification requirements. Both are active systems so you are covered where ADSB doesn't exist or where traffic is not equipped. ATAS, which is included in the base price, depends on ground stations for rebroadcast, but the depiction on the IFD is identical as are the aural callouts.

Also, I did confirm that the remote mounted version of the NGT-9000+ is supported by the IFD.

Rolfe



Edited by rolfe_tessem - 05 Feb 2020 at 11:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whiskykilo1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2020 at 11:28am
OK, I'll take everything back and say the opposite. Sorry :-)

Another question:
I spoke to someone in Oshkosh who was certain that the IFDs could operate not only the remote variant but also the normal variant of the NGT9000 +. I just don't remember if it was with Avidyne or with L3.

Can anybody confirm this?
EASA registered Beech Bonanza F33A located in EDKB Hangelar/Germany, Aspen 1000 EFD, 2 x IFD540
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2020 at 11:34am
Originally posted by whiskykilo1 whiskykilo1 wrote:

OK, I'll take everything back and say the opposite. Sorry :-)

Another question:
I spoke to someone in Oshkosh who was certain that the IFDs could operate not only the remote variant but also the normal variant of the NGT9000 +. I just don't remember if it was with Avidyne or with L3.

Can anybody confirm this?


I have an IFD and panel-mounted NGT 9000.  Since the panel mount NGT is right above the IFD in the stack, and since it has all controls required right on its own panel interface, I do not see any need for the IFD to also be able to control it.  So, as my shop installed the NGT and IFD, my IFD has no control over the NGT 9000.

I know this doesn't answer your question.  I post it only to advise that the lack of IFD control of the NGT 9000 has not affected my ability to control and utilize all its functions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dryan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2020 at 11:37am

Regarding the difference between TAS and TCAS-I:

The TCAS-I performance standard is RTCA/DO-197A, which is the same standard used by TAS, so TAS and TCAS-I are nearly identical.  The TAS TSO (TSO-C147/A) allows a few minor deviations from RTCA/DO-197A.  With the exception of a Class B TAS being allowed to provide ATC-style audible alerts (so that it can operate without a display), a pilot would typically be unable to tell the difference.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PA23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2020 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by rolfe_tessem rolfe_tessem wrote:

ATAS, which is included in the base price, depends on ground stations for rebroadcast, but the depiction on the IFD is identical as are the aural callouts.


This isn't completely accurate for ATAS, the NGT9000 is a dual band IN unit and it listens to other aircraft announce their position via ADS-B, which IIRC aircraft make an ADS-B announcement once per second.

ADS-B (in) allows you to listen to other aircraft's ADS-B out announcements directly on 978 and/or 1090.

ADS-R which is a rebroadcast simply is the ground station rebroadcasting a 1090 signal on 978 or vice versa in the event you can't receive one or the other.

TIS-B is a rebroadcast of a target that is not ADS-B equipped and is the least accurate position report and is limited to a small area around you, commonly called "the traffic puck" or "hockey puck".

The only thing that TAS/TCAS provides is if you are not in a radar environment is that you can identify an aircraft that doesn't have ADS-B out but does have a transponder.  The only question for me and I think it has been answered is the difference between TCAS and TAS.

Jeff
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PA23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2020 at 2:30pm
Originally posted by whiskykilo1 whiskykilo1 wrote:


I spoke to someone in Oshkosh who was certain that the IFDs could operate not only the remote variant but also the normal variant of the NGT9000 +


The install manual (for the NGT) does not show any provisions for remote controlling of the NGT9000, only to remote control the NGT9000R.
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